M11 What lens should I buy first?

[Jeff S]

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On 6/16/2024 at 3:33 AM, AndersPH said:

 What lens should I buy and Why? 😄

My answer is that it doesn’t matter. First, each option you’ll likely consider is plenty good enough IQ-wise these days. And second, it surely won’t be your last, and you will have learned from experience.

Can’t go wrong.  If there were a “right” first lens, we’d all start there.

Jeff

[Rollei35]

Don't bother with which one, just one that is most pleasing to you and fit your budget.

You will end up like me, a few years ago when I started the journey, asking the same question. Now I have 3 50mm and 3 35mm, and it's growing.

 

[crons]

Leica M's are pretty niche specialized cameras. People who choose them they know exactly why. If you're at the point of shooting a Leica M you should know which focal lenghts to buy. You've been through all that already. 

[paulscr]

Apologies - haven’t read all the responses - but can guess most

for me - I came back to the rangefinder and went with the 21mm SEM - wanted something a bit different and stuck with it for a year to learn the focal length. Have since added the vintage reissues (28 and 35SR). 

But appreciate I was coming back to and was familiar with Leica m system. 
 

just another perspective. 

[S Maclean]

1 hour ago, crons said:

Leica M's are pretty niche specialized cameras. People who choose them they know exactly why. If you're at the point of shooting a Leica M you should know which focal lenghts to buy. You've been through all that already. 

They are not, not really. Leica M’s are very basic cameras.  It may seem specialized in a world where everything is automated and a phone can take, correct, filter and post an image in a  nanosecond but an M is basically what a camera has always been.  Aperture, speed, sensitivity and focus. Period.

I personally think that a lot of people want to believe it’s a special camera, maybe to justify its price, maybe to feel part of a mythic history…… but no, they are amongst the most basic camera systems out there…… just better executed than most.

you want specialized? Research technical cameras, large format film cameras etc.

so a new person to photography, if money is no issue, can certainly use and learn with an M camera how to take a picture in an almost analog way. He or she doesn’t need to know anything special to get going.

my opinion anyway.

 

Edited June 17, 2024 by S Maclean

[crons]

14 minutes ago, S Maclean said:

They are not, not really. Leica M’s are very basic cameras.  It may seem specialized in a world where everything is automated and a phone can take, correct, filter and post an image in a  nanosecond but an M is basically what a camera has always been.  Aperture, speed, sensitivity and focus. Period.

I personally think that a lot of people want to believe it’s a special camera, maybe to justify its price, maybe to feel part of a mythic history…… but no, they are amongst the most basic camera systems out there…… just better executed than most.

you want specialized? Research technical cameras, large format film cameras etc.

so a new person to photography, if money is no issue, can certainly use and learn with an M camera how to take a picture in an almost analog way. He or she doesn’t need to know anything special to get going.

my opinion anyway.

 

No I disagree. I didn't say it was difficult to use. 

 

Edited June 17, 2024 by crons

[crons]

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2 hours ago, Rollei35 said:

Don't bother with which one, just one that is most pleasing to you and fit your budget.

You will end up like me, a few years ago when I started the journey, asking the same question. Now I have 3 50mm and 3 35mm, and it's growing.

 

I never understood this. But the Leica customer is mostly hobby and collecting. For me 2 lenses in total are enough. And the summicrons are the kings of every day lenses. 

I understand the lure of a 50f1.2, but I know I'm never going to shoot anything at f1.2 because I need to see everything in the frame in focus because everything in the frame is important. And nailing focus at f1.2 with a rangefinder is going to be impossible so I'll end up shooting it at f2.8 at the most. Also usually the bigger the aperture the worst the lens performs when you close it down. In a f1.2 lens sometimes you start seeing defraction before you hit f8. 

Also those lenses tend to be fat and heavy. Like the Voigtlander 50f1.0. Oh who wants to carry that around. 

Or the 35f1.4 Summilux. again. Heavier. Bigger. It gets in the frame and with the hood it reaches the focusing patch is so long. And I'm never shooting at f1.4. 

In the end all roads lead to the summicron. 

Edited June 17, 2024 by crons

[Jeff S]

17 minutes ago, S Maclean said:

They are not, not really. Leica M’s are very basic cameras.  It may seem specialized in a world where everything is automated and a phone can take, correct, filter and post an image in a  nanosecond but an M is basically what a camera has always been.  Aperture, speed, sensitivity and focus. Period.

I personally think that a lot of people want to believe it’s a special camera, maybe to justify its price, maybe to feel part of a mythic history…… but no, they are amongst the most basic camera systems out there…… just better executed than most.

you want specialized? Research technical cameras, large format film cameras etc.

so a new person to photography, if money is no issue, can certainly use and learn with an M camera how to take a picture in an almost analog way. He or she doesn’t need to know anything special to get going.

my opinion anyway.

 

Many good points, but it’s the RF viewing and focusing experience… not seeing through the lens, that one either bonds with or not. RF based cameras are not as common these days, so some might consider them special or different in actual use… apart from the simple controls.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

21 minutes ago, crons said:

In the end all roads lead to the summicron. 

Funny you should say this.  I’ve shared the story of my first M system purchase back in the mid 80’s.  Briefly, the store owner, an elderly gentleman with a thick Hungarian accent, and a long time Leica (and Rollei) user, insisted I start and stick with Summicrons. Every time I would ask about the merits of a different lens, he would cut me off and just say “Summicron.”  But what about, I would say…. “Summicron,” he would interject.  Needless to say, I bought the 35 Summicron.

Today I still shoot with a minimal M kit, including 28mm and 35mm Summicrons, and am in the process of trading my 35 Summilux ASPH v.1 (FLE) for the 50 Summicron v.5, which I owned long ago but sold for the 50 Summilux ASPH.  I will likely keep the latter as my only non-Summicron lens, leaving 4 total M lenses, which is the most I want to own at a given time.  The 28/35/50 Summicrons, however, would surely be adequate for my style and preferences.

Others, of course, will have different opinions. No right or wrong… except according to the late Mr. Heller, my first Leica dealer.

Jeff

[crons]

49 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Many good points, but it’s the RF viewing and focusing experience… not seeing through the lens, that one either bonds with or not. RF based cameras are not as common these days, so some might consider them special or different in actual use… apart from the simple controls.

Jeff

Yea. Nobody uses rangefinders these days. And even pros I think don't fully understand exposure either. Let alone regular customers. 

Leica M rangefinders really are for a niche subsection of camera buyers. They're not general use cameras. 

Easy for me to use. But not easier than an EVF with autofocus when you do it for a living and have a wedding or an event to shoot. 

27 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Funny you should say this.  I’ve shared the story of my first M system purchase back in the mid 80’s.  Briefly, the store owner, an elderly gentleman with a thick Hungarian accent, and a long time Leica (and Rollei) user, insisted I start and stick with Summicrons. Every time I would ask about the merits of a different lens, he would cut me off and just say “Summicron.”  But what about, I would say…. “Summicron,” he would interject.  Needless to say, I bought the 35 Summicron.

Today I still shoot with a minimal M kit, including 28mm and 35mm Summicrons, and am in the process of trading my 35 Summilux ASPH v.1 (FLE) for the 50 Summicron v.5, which I owned long ago but sold for the 50 Summilux ASPH.  I will likely keep the latter as my only non-Summicron lens, leaving 4 total M lenses, which is the most I want to own at a given time.  The 28/35/50 Summicrons, however, would surely be adequate for my style and preferences.

Others, of course, will have different opinions. No right or wrong… except according to the late Mr. Heller, my first Leica dealer.

Jeff

Yea. There's no better lens for everything. They're the workhorse Leica lens. 

My 50mm itch was only scratched by the cron v5.  That was 2 years ago. Have never wanted any other 50mm. I went through 4 before it in a relatively short period of time. 

The a 28 then a 35. One was too wide. Another had too much distortion. Was never quite right. The focusing was too stiff and not smooth goung from close to infinity. Since it was very small the focus tab wasn't deep enough so my finger would slip off all the time. Pictures were nice but again. It just wasn't quite right.  

Screw it. Got the 35 summicron. I feel the same way as the 50 summicron. Now the pictures are just right. Feel is just right. The weight is just eight. The size is just right.

I watched a Leica video once where a guy had the 50 cron and the 50 Lux and he said because of the size and weight he just stopped taking the summilux and hadn't used it for a long time. Last I heard he was thinking just go all the way to an f1.2 to use occasionally and have that dreamy look when he wanted to. That the cron put his 50 Lux in a weird middle. 

Edited June 17, 2024 by crons

[Rollei35]

8 hours ago, crons said:

I never understood this. But the Leica customer is mostly hobby and collecting. For me 2 lenses in total are enough. And the summicrons are the kings of every day lenses. 

I understand the lure of a 50f1.2, but I know I'm never going to shoot anything at f1.2 because I need to see everything in the frame in focus because everything in the frame is important. And nailing focus at f1.2 with a rangefinder is going to be impossible so I'll end up shooting it at f2.8 at the most. Also usually the bigger the aperture the worst the lens performs when you close it down. In a f1.2 lens sometimes you start seeing defraction before you hit f8. 

Also those lenses tend to be fat and heavy. Like the Voigtlander 50f1.0. Oh who wants to carry that around. 

Or the 35f1.4 Summilux. again. Heavier. Bigger. It gets in the frame and with the hood it reaches the focusing patch is so long. And I'm never shooting at f1.4. 

In the end all roads lead to the summicron. 

You understand that Noctilux 50/1.2 at f2, Summilux 50/1.4 at f2, and APO-Summicron 50/2 at f2 all render differently, don't you?

that's why I have all 3.

Your argument based on what aperture you are shooting is just invalid. If you choose a lens solely based on its maximum aperture you will ever shoot with, then you don't even need a Leica. Get a 7Artisian for 10% of the cost.

Edited June 18, 2024 by Rollei35

[crons]

7 minutes ago, Rollei35 said:

You understand that Noctilux 50/1.2 at f2, Summilux 50/1.4 at f2, and Summicron APO 50/2 at f2 all render differently, don't you?

that's why I have all 3.

You argument based on what aperture you are shooting is just invalid.

Those differences are mostly all wide open. Once you close them there's little differences between them. Difference is like I said most of those f1 and f1.2 lenses don't do as well where I shoot which is f8 and f11. 

Edited June 18, 2024 by crons

[Rollei35]

3 minutes ago, crons said:

Those differences are mosrly all wide open. Once you close them there's little differences between them. 

This is simply just false. I am done arguing with you, or recommending anything for that matter.

Edited June 18, 2024 by Rollei35

[crons]

15 minutes ago, Rollei35 said:

This is simply just false. I am done arguing with you, or recommending anything for that matter.

Who is arguing? 😅 I just don't see it that way is all. Like I said. F8-F11 there's little difference. 

Maybe I'm wrong. So since you have them all, take a photo with your Noctiux at f8 and the summicron at f8 edited the same. 

Edited June 18, 2024 by crons

[lct]

There is not only sharpness in the character of a lens. There is also distortion, CA, focus shift, resistance to flare, etc. Just to take an example, Summicron 50/2 v4 & v5 have more flare than Summilux 50/1.4 asph (or non asph) at the same apertures. More focus shift too. Not the same OoF rendition either, etc. etc. There is always more or less compromise in a lens and it is what gives the character we like or dislike in them.

[Alvin Greis]

On 6/16/2024 at 3:29 PM, AndersPH said:

Thanks for all suggestions I will probably start with a 35mm. I’m a Canon R5 user 24-70 today like to have something smaller 🙂

I was in the same situation a year ago, looked for Leica M11 in addition to my Canon R3 with the same lens. 

I spent a few days shooting only 35mm, on my Canon other days shooting 50mm and compared the results. Because, in my mind, investing in Leica is investing in a lens first. Without the proper lens experience and results won’t be outstanding as it could be (for that money). 

I choose 50mm (apo-version) and can’t imagine being happier. But it’s personal.

 

 

Edited June 18, 2024 by Alvin Greis

[AndersPH]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Alvin Greis:

I was in the same situation a year ago, looked for Leica M11 in addition to my Canon R3 with the same lens. 

I spent a few days shooting only 35mm, on my Canon other days shooting 50mm and compared the results. Because, in my mind, investing in Leica is investing in a lens first. Without the proper lens experience and results won’t be outstanding as it could be (for that money). 

I choose 50mm (apo-version) and can’t imagine being happier. But it’s personal.

 

 

Thanks a good advice 👍🏻

[Pika898]

35 APO and call it a day.

I’ve learnt this the hard way by buying and selling way too many leica lenses of varying focal lengths.