Unimpressed with 24-70 - Other options? Help needed please

[JTLeica]

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42 minutes ago, Markey said:

 We all differ in our ability regarding low shutter speeds but I would try and up your shutter speed as a first step.

It’s definitely not that. The in focus parts are razor sharp. This motion blur appearance is just in the bokeh. I don’t think it’s motion but I don’t know. It’s not the shutter speed though. 

[JTLeica]

1 hour ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Consider testing your lenses with a static test target and with camera / lens combinations fitted to a decent tripod & tripod head – and use the shutter release with self-timer – thus eliminating 'shake'. And 'turn off' IBIS when using a tripod. 

BW, dunk 

Thanks, I hear you, it's not shake as the rest of the image is razor sharp. I will post a couple of examples now I have just taken. I think 90% of people would think this is totally fine I a not convinced... Honest opinions please

 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Consider testing your lenses with a static test target and with camera / lens combinations fitted to a decent tripod & tripod head – and use the shutter release with self-timer – thus eliminating 'shake'. And 'turn off' IBIS when using a tripod. 

BW, dunk 

+1

Even though you (OP) explain why it can't be camera shake, this is how I would carry out basic lens and camera testing: it eliminates some variables and sources of error, and permits consistent/reproducible shots of test targets or identical subjects.

Edited June 18, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[dkCambridgeshire]

Is the card formatted and of reputable manufacture & not a fake? Dodgy cards can cause problems. Have you tried alternative formatted cards? 

[JTLeica]

6 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

+1

Even though you explain why it can't be camera shake, this is how I would carry out basic lens and camera testing: it eliminates some variables and sources of error, and permits consistent/reproducible shots of test targets or identical subjects.

I totally agree what I am doing isnt optimum, but the image is sharp, no camera shake at all, no IBIS to be blamed either. 

This image here is 2500th second, F2, and the middle is sharp, due to the size limitation I have posted an overall look so you can see the image, a centre crop showing its razor sharp, its the same in the corners (this is with the 35mm APO)...

 

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[JTLeica]

Crop from centre - sharp centre - razor sharp

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[JTLeica]

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Bottom crop showing messy Bokeh

I am trying to understand if this double exposure type Bokeh is normal with this lens?

Of course this are is only just out of focus, accentuating the 'messiness'

If this was a shutter issue, shock, slow shutter etc you would not see a sharp centre. Also nigh on impossible to get shutter shake at 2500th second.

This is a just me trying to connect the dots really, if this bokeh isnt normal, maybe it explains some of the other blur issues on other lenses too?

Just trying to be a detective.

It is definitely not IBIS as this was disabled on the majority of images, and have tested both on and off, no difference.

It is not the shutter.... I tested both mechanical and electronic - much less rolling shutter with the SL3 vs the M11 which is great.

It cannot be an mis aligned sensor, as this wouldnt give me sharp images anywhere, or at least there would be a common theme with different lenses, i.e. all images soft on one side etc

To be totally transparent I have currently bought:

14-24 - seems ok ish, I am not blown away like others seem to be.

24-70 - two of these, one was a dud, blurred to one side consistently, tested with a horizon shot diagonally across both diagonals. Evaluated at infinity.

The second 24-70 was just not great in the corners, but was evenly not great, not just one sided.

35 APO - Perfect resolution - I am only questioning the double Bokeh tryong to establish a connection to the above.

Sigma 24-70 II - Perfect apart from unusable at F2.8-7.1 at only 35mm and around that FL - The rest of the lens was great.

100-400 - Superb. 

75mm APO - This is a tough one, it was mostly great, the left side, tested again at infinity along the diagonals was less sharp on the left than the right, but I dont think many would have even noticed, it was 1-2% difference maybe. Maybe I was being too harshly critical but at 4k I thought I had the right to aha!

 

So its not all terrible and there is also no consistency with the results, apart from this double exposure bokeh with slightly out of focus areas, am I just too critical?

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[JTLeica]

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[JTLeica]

25 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Is the card formatted and of reputable manufacture & not a fake? Dodgy cards can cause problems. Have you tried alternative formatted cards? 

Yes tried a lot of cards, not just one, maybe 4-5 just by chance and I always misplace

[wizard]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb JTLeica:

I am trying to understand if this double exposure type Bokeh is normal with this lens?

I do not own this lens, but if your main point of focus is tack sharp and not even the slightest motion blur is detectable in the area of your main point of focus, well, then I'd say this is the sort of bokeh that this lens provides. One word of caution though, bokeh in front of the focus plane may differ from bokeh behind the focus plane, and bokeh will also be dependent on the aperture used, so take your time in testing your lens to find out when it develops a kind of bokeh which you do not like, so as to avoid those specific conditions.

[PavelS]

4 hours ago, PavelS said:

Looks like motiom blur to me. What is the shutter speed?

I need to correct my statement, now that I have seen it in context of the whole image. I did not realised the crop is actually of such magnification. Seeing the whole image I believe this is just the bokeh of the APO 35 Summicron. Mind you, this particular case with busy details and being on *foreground* to the point of focus is less favourable setup for this lens. I believe the lens is just fine. The APO Summicrons are not known to be a "cream machines" like some of the Summiluxes. 

Also, I believe that the memory cards can not have anything to do with character of an image (bokeh). You either get the file recorded or not. In worst case corrupted data file with some funky missing lines but not altered character of image.

Edited June 18, 2024 by PavelS

[PavelS]

I have only used the APO 35 Summicron once or twice last year so I do not have many images captured with it. Here are two examples of how technical the bokeh really is (check the checkered shirt on the left and blurred people in the background on the first image and the blurred guy in foreground on the second). I believe this is part of the character of APO lens and the character is a price for APO corrected optics.

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Edited June 18, 2024 by PavelS

[JTLeica]

Just now, PavelS said:

I need to correct my statement, now I have seen it in context of the whole image. I did not realised the crop is actually of such magnification. Seeing the whole image I believe this is just the bokeh of the APO 35 Summicron. Mind you, this particular case with busy details and being on *foreground* to the point of focus is less favourable setup for this lens. I believe the lens is just fine. The APO Summicrons are not known to be a "cream machines" like some of the Summiluxes. 

Also, I believe that the memory cards can not have anything to do with character of an image (bokeh). You either get the file recorded or not. In worst case corrupted data file with some funky missing lines but not altered character of image.

Agreed on the cards, they can cause issues but not in the image.

Yes the lens I think is fine. I am looking online at lots of samples... There are a fair few that show what I am seeing. I think as you say Pavel this might just be the lens character. When I shoot a closer up image the background looks soft as it should, but maybe modern lenses are so sharp that when something is only just out of focus, they appear harsher? Cant have it all I guess.

 

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[JTLeica]

15 minutes ago, PavelS said:

I have only used the APO 35 Summicron once or twice last year so I do not have many images captured with it. Here are two examples of how technical the bokeh really is (check the checkered shirt on the left and blurred people in the background on the first image and the blurred guy in foreground on the second). I believe this is part of the character of APO lens and the character is a price for APO corrected optics.

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Yes agreed, looks lovely there, but as this is significantly out of focus I think what I am seeing wont show up.

 

[tom0511]

Unscientific prooved my feeling using the apos is, that the 35 can sometimes show a little harsher bokeh than the 28 and the 50. but again just my feeling.

in regards of the zooms I have not been unhappy with sharpness of my 2470 Leica, but have gone back to use the 2490 more often. Not because of sharpness but I seem to prefer the overall look, a little smoother and richer in my unscientific impressions. Plus 90 mm is a plus.

 

[BLeventhal]

As I've shared, I own 3 of the lenses you are currently using... 24-70, 14-24, 100-400.. All Leica branded Sigma lenses. After visiting your website, reading your text, and looking at your image examples, I can tell you know what you are doing and are a talented photographer. 

The SL3 has a 60MP sensor and it appears that you have reached the lens limits of the Vario-Elmars when it comes to detail and sharpness. I think anyone who has bought and used the Leica-branded Sigmas did so knowing that they were not going to be as sharp and contrasty as the 16-35, 24-90, and 90-280... well, maybe not everyone, but I definitely knew I was buying a compromise optic. I wanted the haptics of the Leica designed barrels, but knew that I was getting a Sigma in Leica clothes. Your 35mm APO reveals what the Leica-designed optics can do and you may want to look for a way to find the funds to buy the Leica designed zooms. Were I not so heavily invested in Nikon's top glass, I would have gone with the 3 Leica-designed zooms... however, for less than $6000 I was about to acquire a range of 14-400mm and make good use of my SL2 and SL2s

good luck,

bruce

[JTLeica]

4 hours ago, wizard said:

I do not own this lens, but if your main point of focus is tack sharp and not even the slightest motion blur is detectable in the area of your main point of focus, well, then I'd say this is the sort of bokeh that this lens provides. One word of caution though, bokeh in front of the focus plane may differ from bokeh behind the focus plane, and bokeh will also be dependent on the aperture used, so take your time in testing your lens to find out when it develops a kind of bokeh which you do not like, so as to avoid those specific conditions.

Yes I think you are right. I think it is a problem with a ‘perfect lens’ you cannot have it all and there will be a trade off. Maybe this is it. I can completely live with that, I feel better knowing it’s not a lens problem and more a characteristic

[JTLeica]

2 hours ago, BLeventhal said:

As I've shared, I own 3 of the lenses you are currently using... 24-70, 14-24, 100-400.. All Leica branded Sigma lenses. After visiting your website, reading your text, and looking at your image examples, I can tell you know what you are doing and are a talented photographer. 

The SL3 has a 60MP sensor and it appears that you have reached the lens limits of the Vario-Elmars when it comes to detail and sharpness. I think anyone who has bought and used the Leica-branded Sigmas did so knowing that they were not going to be as sharp and contrasty as the 16-35, 24-90, and 90-280... well, maybe not everyone, but I definitely knew I was buying a compromise optic. I wanted the haptics of the Leica designed barrels, but knew that I was getting a Sigma in Leica clothes. Your 35mm APO reveals what the Leica-designed optics can do and you may want to look for a way to find the funds to buy the Leica designed zooms. Were I not so heavily invested in Nikon's top glass, I would have gone with the 3 Leica-designed zooms... however, for less than $6000 I was about to acquire a range of 14-400mm and make good use of my SL2 and SL2s

good luck,

bruce

Thanks again Bruce, you speak very wisely I think. I think you have done the right thing especially if you are happy with the results.

I have gone back over the lenses that I have here and I am content with the 14-24, there is a change that my diagonal test was pulling out the worst in the lens. Very happy with the 35 APO. Just unboxed a 20mm F2 Sigma as that is also perfect. I think I was unlucky with the first 24-70 Leica and maybe even the Sigma II version. I have a feeling that the 24-70 (the second Leica version I had) was fine, but I just wasn't happy with it. The 75 APO was ok, definitely slightly soft on the left. And the 100-400 was great. So I am feeling a little more confident in this system now.

Thanks for your comments on the website and photography, its a little out of date, but I will sort that soon.

[JTLeica]

4 hours ago, tom0511 said:

Unscientific prooved my feeling using the apos is, that the 35 can sometimes show a little harsher bokeh than the 28 and the 50. but again just my feeling.

in regards of the zooms I have not been unhappy with sharpness of my 2470 Leica, but have gone back to use the 2490 more often. Not because of sharpness but I seem to prefer the overall look, a little smoother and richer in my unscientific impressions. Plus 90 mm is a plus.

 

Thanks Tom and interesting to hear your thoughts on the 35.

It is definitely the lens that produces the harsh Bokeh. Just tried a Voigtlander 35 on a Leica M and SL3, neither show that harsh bokeh and both looked the same on each camera, so cannot be anything wrong with the SL3 - PHEW.... 

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[tom0511]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb JTLeica:

Thanks Tom and interesting to hear your thoughts on the 35.

It is definitely the lens that produces the harsh Bokeh. Just tried a Voigtlander 35 on a Leica M and SL3, neither show that harsh bokeh and both looked the same on each camera, so cannot be anything wrong with the SL3 - PHEW.... 

I think it depends also a lot on the scene and background and distance one has.

The 50/1.4 SL is the best in regards of bokeh from the primes, for my taste. But its quite big.