Leica II (?) serial number not found

[TXGR]

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Several years ago, I bought a Leica II with the serial number 297000 from KEH (pic below). However, in all the serial number lists I found, there is a gap. There is a batch of Leica Standard models with serial numbers 296601 to 296900 and then the next batch are Leica IIIa models with serial numbers 297101 to 297200. Both of those batches were made in 1938. I assume I am missing something or not reading the list  correctly. Is there any more to this, or is this just a gap in the records? 

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[alan mcfall]

Hahne lists 296951-297100 as Model II chrome cameras. Yours (297000) would seem to fit in this lot.

[TXGR]

Great, thanks. I looked at 3 lists and they all matched, but I figured they were based on a single source. Is Hahne the author of a book? I don't have any collector books about Leicas.

For Colt, one can write to their historical branch (now a separate entity) and they will research the actual wholesale transfer information for a fee. The requestor gets an authentication letter back with information about the original configuration of the firearm, lot, shipment, and destination wholesaler or retailer. Too bad Leica doesn't have a similar service, but I imagine many of their records were destroyed.

Thanks again.

[pedaes]

44 minutes ago, TXGR said:

r. Too bad Leica doesn't have a similar service, but I imagine many of their records were destroyed.

As others will no doubt confirm, Leica does have all the original hand written production records and can confirm date of manufacture and original destination.

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, TXGR said:

For Colt, one can write to their historical branch (now a separate entity) and they will research the actual wholesale transfer information for a fee. The requestor gets an authentication letter back with information about the original configuration of the firearm, lot, shipment, and destination wholesaler or retailer. Too bad Leica doesn't have a similar service, but I imagine many of their records were destroyed.

Just email info@leica-camera.com - when I asked about a camera from the 1930s, they were able to find the shipping date and destination city in the archive. They don't charge, but you don't get a fancy letter, just a friendly email.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello TXGR,

Welcome to the Forum.

Nice camera.

The serial number of your camera is well within the serial numbers in the WIKI at the top of this page.

You might find it advantageous to look thru the Leica WIKI at the top of this page for Leitz/Leica material in general. The English version & the German version (In  German.) contain similar, but sometimes different, information from each other. Like the International section & the German section of this Forum.

Your camera seems to have engraved numbers in keeping for the "297".

But the "000" seems to be tilted a little down to the left.

And, the "000" do not seem to have the characteristic bulge in their sides, like a slightly ripening Brie does, that is characteristic of the "0" style Leitz used at that time period.

Perhaps writing to Leica (the current holder of the earlier Leitz records.), as suggested above, can help to clarify this issue.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited June 12, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

[TXGR]

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Thanks for all the replies. I have four Barnack Leicas, all pre-war. I will write to Leica to ask about the production and original destination. This could be very interesting. I believe the Colt Historian charges $150 for research whether they can produce a certificate of authenticity or not. Free sounds much better.

------

Michael, you wrote you thought the zeros did not look correct for the time period (1938). Do you think this could be a fake?

The camera is currently with my spouse in Thailand, so I don't have a pic of the front or the range finder actuator in the mount. I will ask, but it might take a day or two to get them.

I had not seen that wiki before. It's very interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[jerzy]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb TXGR:

this could be a fake

no, it is not fake. On one of your photos you may see a small step above the viewer window.
Small deviation of "0" in serial number is caused during engraving. Engraving person assembled the master of serial number used for engraving machine taking individual numbers and putting them together, an old Gutenberg method. And if he/she by mistake positioned "0" masters upside down this could cause this effect.

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[TXGR]

Thanks so much for all the responses and helpful information. I was quite relieved by @jerzy last response. I was worried for a moment.

I wrote to Leica, as suggested, and I received a response back in less than a day.

Quote

Camera, SNr. 297000 , was shipped on September 10th, 1938.The place of delivery or recipient is not noted.
Camera, SNr. 205385 was shipped on August 1st, 1936 to „Munich“. The recipient is not noted.
Camera, SNr. 336909 was shipped on December 6th, 1939 to „Vienna“. The recipient is not noted.
Camera, SNr. 374527 was shipped on September 19th, 1941 to „Shanghai“. The recipient is not noted.

My mind is spinning with the possibilities of where these cameras went, who owned them, and the pictures taken, each on the eve of world war or just at the beginning. Leica also wrote there were no entries for repair on any of them.

Obviously I need cameras from 1937 and 1940 now. The funny thing is the first three are now in Asia (Thailand). The one originally shipped to Asia is now just about 30 minutes east of the German border in Poland. 

[Anbaric]

It's tempting to speculate whether 297000, with its 'special' serial number, went to special customer, though there could be many other reasons why the place of delivery wasn't recorded. It's interesting that 374527 went to Shanghai, under Japanese occupation at the time, which might be relevant to your other thread - perhaps Saburo Sakai would have been able to obtain a new IIIc in Japan after all.

[jc_braconi]

You have this on top of the forum as a link to

 

	Numéros de série Cette page vous permet de trouver à quel matériel correspond un numéro de série. Le résultat est élaboré à partir de la base de données de summilux.net.   Entrez le numéro de série et indiquez si il concerne un boîtier ou un objectif.     Type de matériel :

BoîtierObjectif Numéro de série :   Le boîtier portant le numéro de série 297000 est un II fabriqué en 1938

[TXGR]

@Anbaric when you wrote that about Japanese occupation, I went to look it up because I thought Shanghai didn't fall until December 1941. Of course, you're correct, Japan took initial partial possession in 1932, then conquered the remaining Chinese administered sections in 1937, leaving only the international settlements. Only the international enclaves were finally conquered in December 1941. "Shanghai" could mean any of the three zones.

I recently saw a documentary about Albert Speer converting the Germany to full wartime production. They apparently continued making luxury goods well into 1943. It was Speer, who finally seized total control of the economy and production. Up until that time, products were exported to Sweden or down to Portugal for distribution around the world. I forget the details now, but the documentary mentioned two examples, one where newly manufactured German products were imported into Great Britain and another where a British product was imported into the Reich in late 1941 or early 1942. Of course, these were unusual cases and belligerents did their best to prevent such transfers. Unfortunately, the documentary didn't mention cameras or lenses.

I am going to respond on the other thread a little later, as I need to look something up first.

As you can probably tell, I am a bit of a history nerd. The idea that I have something in my hands right now -- and still fully functional -- made in 1941 and shipped half way around the world is just amazing. We still use these cameras regularly.

[TXGR]

I was able to find my 1938 copy of the Leica Manual in English. In the back is a listing of "Miniature Camera Dealers and Service Stations" mostly in the US, but with an "Over Seas" section which includes five locations in China, two in Japan, and three in Manchukuo (Japanese puppet state in Mongolia). Curiously, there are no listings for Germany. 

In Asia, the retailers are "Schmidt & Co. Ltd." in China, but "Schmidt Shoten Ltd." in Japan and Manchukuo. I imagine they are actually the same company, but I don't really know that. I can't imagine there was so much business to justify three outlets in Manchukuo, which was largely rural and poorer. In Japan, the locations are in Osaka and Tokyo.

In China, the locations are Hankow, Hong Kong, Peiping, Shanghai, and Tientsin. I don't know if the Shanghai store, "346 Szechuen Road, Chase Bank Bldg," was in the international settlement, but that would be consistent with a western bank owned building.

[Michael Geschlecht]

3 hours ago, TXGR said:

I was able to find my 1938 copy of the Leica Manual in English. In the back is a listing of "Miniature Camera Dealers and Service Stations" mostly in the US, but with an "Over Seas" section which includes five locations in China, two in Japan, and three in Manchukuo (Japanese puppet state in Mongolia). Curiously, there are no listings for Germany. 

In Asia, the retailers are "Schmidt & Co. Ltd." in China, but "Schmidt Shoten Ltd." in Japan and Manchukuo. I imagine they are actually the same company, but I don't really know that. I can't imagine there was so much business to justify three outlets in Manchukuo, which was largely rural and poorer. In Japan, the locations are in Osaka and Tokyo.

In China, the locations are Hankow, Hong Kong, Peiping, Shanghai, and Tientsin. I don't know if the Shanghai store, "346 Szechuen Road, Chase Bank Bldg," was in the international settlement, but that would be consistent with a western bank owned building.

Hello TXGR,

"Manchukuo" is the name of the puppet state that was created out of the Northeastern part of China known as "Manchuria".

"Outer Mongolia" is a separate Country that is geographically to the West of "Manchukuo"/"Manchuria".

Not to be confused with "Inner Mongolia" (A part of China.) which is partially between "Manchuria"/"Manchukuo" & "Outer Mongolia". And is partially the Northern part of China which contacts "Outer Mongolia".

At the time we are discussing: There was significant Japanese investment in the infrastructure, mining & manufacturing within "Manchuria"/"Manchukuo".

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited June 16, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

[TXGR]

@Michael Geschlecht of course, thank you for the correction.

I am currently in the middle of "Ten Years in Japan" written by US Ambassador Joseph Grew at the point where the Japanese government officially recognized the puppet state and then quit the League of Nations when the LoN determined Japan was the aggressor. I am embarrassed I mixed them up.

[alphonse2501]

I collect few details about the location of Chase bank in British concession of Shanghai:

Based on Chinese Wikipedia, Jiujiang Road was the location that concentrated many foreign banks and hongs.   

And the address "346 Szechuen Road, Chase Bank Bldg" is not able to pinpoint in actual location, but Szechuen Road does intersected with Jiujiang Road.

Map attach here is Japanese made in 1932. Compare it with Google map.

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