Left Side Stablizing Lugs

[oldretiredafguy]

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Being an old user and collector of things Leitz, I just tried to mount my new to me M4-P (my newest Leica by many years) onto my old CTOOM flash bracket. The camera is missing the Left side stabilizing lug that fits into the left side of the CTOOM bracket. When was this lug removed, and more importantly why? Finally get a Leica with a hot shoe, and now can't fit it in the bracket that I've been using for red eye elimination for years.

 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello oldretiredafguy,

Welcome to the Forum.

The M3, M2, M1, MD & MDa, all have the very useful lug in question.

The MDa is a no range/viewfinder, sort of, M4. With extras. Production began in 1966. Before the M4.

The M4 was the first "M" camera without the lug. The M4 began production in 1967.

Both the M4 & the MDa ended production in 1975.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

Edited May 28, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

[oldretiredafguy]

3 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello oldretiredafguy,

Welcome to the Forum.

The M3, M2, M1, MD & MDa, all have the very useful lug in question.

The MDa is a no range/viewfinder, sort of, M4. With extras. Production began in 1966. Before the M4.

The M4 was the first "M" camera without the lug. The M4 began production in 1967.

Both the M4 & the MDa ended production in 1975.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

Michael,

Thanks for the historical info. I'm still curious as to why Leitz dropped the lug in a 1967 M4 camera. All the research I've done says the CTOOM was in production until 1964. Seems to break their unwritten rule to make accessories viable for 20-30 years.

I also wonder if some of the well known repair shops could add one? It would probably require a donor body, as I'm going to assume that Leitz has zero stock in their service facilities, as the last production bodies that might possibly have one installed ended in the late 60's.

Edited May 28, 2024 by oldretiredafguy
Left Salutation out.

[250swb]

Very curious, my M4-P does have the left hand lug. Does your camera have it's original covering or has somebody drilled the lug out to fit an aftermarket covering?

Edited May 28, 2024 by 250swb

[Anbaric]

2 hours ago, 250swb said:

Very curious, my M4-P does have the left hand lug. Does your camera have it's original covering or has somebody drilled the lug out to fit an aftermarket covering?

Maybe it's the other way around, and yours has been added? Looking at photos of the M4 variants online, it seems to be absent, but is easy to spot on the M2 & M3.

Did this lug serve any other purpose, or was it just for this bracket?

[250swb]

2 hours ago, Anbaric said:

Maybe it's the other way around, and yours has been added? Looking at photos of the M4 variants online, it seems to be absent, but is easy to spot on the M2 & M3.

Did this lug serve any other purpose, or was it just for this bracket?

Wow you are right, but mine has the original vulcanite

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[zelias]

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Does this part fit? https://www.micro-tools.de/en/Camera-Parts/Leica/MAB-ST.html

[Anbaric]

I've never paid any attention to this stud before. I only have one on a IIIg. It seems to have come in (together with flash sync, which makes sense) on the IIIf (my IIIc doesn't have one). I see a suggestion in a previous thread that the CTOOM became more awkward to use with the M4 and later cameras with the canted folding rewind lever, so the stud was omitted. Perhaps they should have brought it back with the MP! But I imagine it would be a pretty straightforward thing for a technician who has the part to install. There is another thread with an M4-P that has this stud, which looks rather like a third party job (internally, the riveting seems a bit rough). I wonder if Leica themselves offered this service, or made it available as a special order option? How well does the CTOOM work without this extra anchor point?

[250swb]

21 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

There is another thread with an M4-P that has this stud, which looks rather like a third party job (internally, the riveting seems a bit rough). I wonder if Leica themselves offered this service, or made it available as a special order option? How well does the CTOOM work without this extra anchor point?

The serial of that camera is very close to mine, but my rivetted lug is much neater inside and not suffering corrosion. I wonder if this is a previously unnoticed feature of the last of the M4-P's along with the other changes?

[Anbaric]

Another post mentions this stud engages with other accessories, too, like the Focoslide, so perhaps there was some special application that required it?

[oldretiredafguy]

9 hours ago, 250swb said:

Wow you are right, but mine has the original vulcanite

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Your M4-P is a very late model M-4P, with M6 windows and a single rear flash sync socket: (according to the fellow on the Camera Quest website).  I wonder if anyone else's M4-P from serial #'s:  1650026-1651250 or 1691951-1692950 (again from the Camera Quest website discussion about M4-P's having M6 windows) have the left hand mounting lug?

[Michael Geschlecht]

13 hours ago, 250swb said:

Wow you are right, but mine has the original vulcanite

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Hello Everybody,

The lug in these photos seems to stick out a little further than the corresponding lug on a late model M3 does.

Best Regards,

Michael

[250swb]

8 hours ago, oldretiredafguy said:

Your M4-P is a very late model M-4P, with M6 windows and a single rear flash sync socket: (according to the fellow on the Camera Quest website).  I wonder if anyone else's M4-P from serial #'s:  1650026-1651250 or 1691951-1692950 (again from the Camera Quest website discussion about M4-P's having M6 windows) have the left hand mounting lug?

@Anbaric's post #8 has a link to another thread where as I said the serial number of that camera is close to mine, but not really close enough to suggest adding the lug was a special block order for a company such as a newspaper etc. This was the time when production of the M4-P was back at Wetzlar (despite it saying 'Canada' on the top plate) and Leica were using/testing all the new bits they were going to use on the M6 on the M4-P minus the meter. Perhaps they had something in mind regarding a new flash bracket or accessory that never came to market? So far the only ones I've seen with the extra lug are the M4-P's with the strap protectors.

[oldretiredafguy]

On 5/28/2024 at 6:58 AM, 250swb said:

Wow you are right, but mine has the original vulcanite

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Maybe the correlation is the anti-scratch pads on this very late M4-P.

Anyone know any technical/engineer folks at the factory that could answer the question as to why the left hand lug was removed starting with M-4 production?

[Anbaric]

9 hours ago, oldretiredafguy said:

Maybe the correlation is the anti-scratch pads on this very late M4-P.

For what it's worth, the earliest M6 classics had neither the protectors above the strap lugs nor (as far as I know) the lower left side stud, and the stud didn't appear when the protectors were added later in production (which was presumably when the M4-P got the protectors too - both models overlapped for a while).

[pippy]

On 5/29/2024 at 7:52 AM, 250swb said:

@Anbaric's post #8 has a link to another thread where as I said the serial number of that camera is close to mine, but not really close enough to suggest adding the lug was a special block order for a company such as a newspaper etc. This was the time when production of the M4-P was back at Wetzlar (despite it saying 'Canada' on the top plate) and Leica were using/testing all the new bits they were going to use on the M6 on the M4-P minus the meter.

To reply to a tangential subject raised by 250swb within the thread linked by Anbaric...

One of my mates has fairly recently acquired one of the 'Last Batch' Flush-Window M4-P bodies in Silver Chrome finish. If you like (and he is willing) I can ask him whether the locating stud is present on his camera.

Philip.

[250swb]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

To reply to a tangential subject raised by 250swb within the thread linked by Anbaric...

One of my mates has fairly recently acquired one of the 'Last Batch' Flush-Window M4-P bodies in Silver Chrome finish. If you like (and he is willing) I can ask him whether the locating stud is present on his camera.

Philip.

It would be academically interesting if you could, refer him to this article

https://cameraquest.com/m4pm6.htm

but if it has a full-house of strap protectors, a single sync post, flush windows, an extra lug, and chrome it would be as rare as hens teeth.

Edited June 5, 2024 by 250swb

[pippy]

1 minute ago, 250swb said:

It would be academically interesting if you could, refer him to this article

https://cameraquest.com/m4pm6.htm

but if it has strap protectors, a single sync post, flush windows, an extra lug, and chrome it would be as rare as hens teeth.

Hi Steve.

Yes; he's aware of the CameraQuest article. I did give him a call just after I posted my reply but he was about to go into a meeting so will get back to me later today. It does have the protectors, single flash post and flush windows and, yes, it is a rarity.

As it happens it was me who saw the camera advertised. I knew that, at the time, he was on the lookout for an M4-Something and, as it was a scarce item, it would probably be a Very Good Acquisition so alerted him to its availability; a decision I sometimes very slightly regret having made as I should have grabbed it for myself!......😸......

I'll let you know about the 'Lug' once I know myself.

Philip.

[Mike S]

13 hours ago, pippy said:

To reply to a tangential subject raised by 250swb within the thread linked by Anbaric...

One of my mates has fairly recently acquired one of the 'Last Batch' Flush-Window M4-P bodies in Silver Chrome finish. If you like (and he is willing) I can ask him whether the locating stud is present on his camera.

Philip.

I’m the mate 😁.
 

Not quite the full set of rarities I’m afraid. Last Canadian batch serial number, silver chrome, zinc top plate and flush windows, but no protectors and no stud. Does have an unconventional single flash post, but that’s a result of carelessness as the other one is unfortunately somewhere on the South Beach at Troon.
 

My feeling is that these last M4-P’s were produced in with the early M6’s either as test beds or just meterless 6’s because those were parts to hand as the line changed, hence the jumble of rarities we get to try and decode. All part of the fun! 
 

Mike

Edited June 5, 2024 by Mike S
Typo

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[pippy]

25 minutes ago, Mike S said:

Not quite the full set of rarities I’m afraid...no protectors and no stud. Does have an unconventional single flash post, but that’s a result of carelessness as the other one is unfortunately somewhere on the South Beach at Troon...

Cheers M'Dear!

Sorry to have "mis-remebered" (I should have persevered with the Politics carerer) the Protectors. Sorry, also, to have learned about the unfortunate Mugging on Troon's beach.

Regards!

Philip.

P.S. : Why are you copying MY avatar ("FYI your guitar needs MORE prominence!!!")? Bloody Pradip's influence I'll bet......😸......

Edited June 5, 2024 by pippy