Q2M Vs Q3...Does it make any difference?

[reynoldsyoung]

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Hey, guys!  I am told that  if one's first Q3  conversation step is to desaturate a Q3 color image using either LR or Capture One color editors one color slider at a time reducing the Q3 image to a B&W DNG, you are now working with the same mono image that the Bayer-less Q2M produces out of the camera.

Any thoughts???

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[M11 for me]

I'd say:

With the color sliders of your Q3 you can create an image that is identic to one shot with the monochrom camera. 

Regarding low light capabilities there are differences. But that is not where your question goes.

[M11 for me]

I mean of course:

With the LR Claasic color sliders . . .

[Le Chef]

I have a Q3 and once the DNG image is downloaded to Lightroom I will look to see if it works better in B&W. If so I will either convert it in Lightroom or use Silver EfexPro.

[pegelli]

5 hours ago, reynoldsyoung said:

you are now working with the same mono image that the Bayer-less Q2M produces out of the camera

I think there are two main differences:

The pixels of the monochrome sensor will have received more light due to the absence of the R, G and B filters that are present on the colour sensor.

Secondly the raw converter will create 4 pixels based on some kind of interpolation algorithm based on the R, G, G and B pixels and their surroundings, in a monochrome sensor no such  interpolation needs to take place and every pixel in the photo is based on only the signal from one pixel on the sensor.

How important these differences are in the final result is a obviously a different matter

 

[Miltz]

The answer is no. If someone only shoots in BW the Q2M is the better option. The images are completely different. That’s being said the Q3 does well compared to the regular Q2 when both are converted to BW. The Q3 is also better at high iso, but not as good as the Q2M

[reynoldsyoung]

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Boy, all good stuff!  Yes, Pegelli...."how important these differences are in the final result is an obviously different matter"!  I do get the low light differences in the two...but, in normal light shooting,  to Pegelli's point, does it matter?  And, given the capability of both cameras and of both LR and Capture One, can't we end up with practically the same print regardless?

I love B & W....but, must it start with a Q_M?  Can't imagine my eye being able to tell...after processing and the pain staking editing to produce a fine art print...the difference.

Great discussion!

[thegobi]

I think the differences between a Q2M and a Q3 will really only matter to those who shoot solely in B&W. It is a no-compromise camera. If you want to shoot in colour as well, get a Q3.

Also note that many Q2M users didn’t buy it just for technical reasons (me included)—there is a mindset that only a true B&W only camera can give you—there are other chats about this on the site 🙂

[jps1]

In the Q3 image thread, practically all my photos are in B&W with the Q3.

The processing is done in Capture One (I don't use Silver EfexPro).

[thegobi]

1 hour ago, jps1 said:

In the Q3 image thread, practically all my photos are in B&W with the Q3

 

This might be a small point, but you said ‘practically’…. 🙂

I can’t stress enough this is an all or nothing camera!

Unless you have a really good reason to concentrate on B&W I would stick with a Q3.

Edited April 24, 2024 by thegobi

[reynoldsyoung]

3 hours ago, jps1 said:

In the Q3 image thread, practically all my photos are in B&W with the Q3.

The processing is done in Capture One (I don't use Silver EfexPro).

And, they are gorgeous B&W images....congrats!!  You certainly make a case for sticking with the Q3!!

[jps1]

Il y a 3 heures, reynoldsyoung a dit :

Et, ce sont de magnifiques images en noir et blanc... félicitations !! Vous faites certainement en all'affaire pour s'en tenir au Q3 !

Merci, depuis que j'ai le Q3 je suis revenu au noir et blanc.

[pegelli]

On 4/24/2024 at 2:02 AM, reynoldsyoung said:

Boy, all good stuff!  Yes, Pegelli...."how important these differences are in the final result is an obviously different matter"!  I do get the low light differences in the two...but, in normal light shooting,  to Pegelli's point, does it matter?  And, given the capability of both cameras and of both LR and Capture One, can't we end up with practically the same print regardless?

You asked a theoretical question, which I answered in the same way.

The answer is clearly "no", you are not working on the same file/image given the considerations I've given. I'm sure shooting test charts you can detect the difference in resolution so it's a real difference. How importanmt that is for you only you can determine. Secondly I agree that as long as you stay at base ISO the noise/low light differences can't be seen in the file. Only the a monochrome sensor and higher base ISO you can use a faster shutter speed as compared to a colour sensor with lower base ISO and that in itself is an advantage that is hard to quantify because it depends a lot on the conditions you're facing.

[TheLaird]

On 4/24/2024 at 8:09 AM, jps1 said:

In the Q3 image thread, practically all my photos are in B&W with the Q3.

The processing is done in Capture One (I don't use Silver EfexPro).

They are superb and the conversions are glorious. As a person who is looking to ove to Q3 from a Q2. I am moving towards more mono than colour images.

what sort of processing do you do on your monos.

[jps1]

On Capture one I use the Black and white tool to play on color channels.

Original presets can also be used.

If you use Capture One it's very simple.

Edited April 25, 2024 by jps1

[jaapv]

On 4/23/2024 at 4:34 PM, M11 for me said:

I'd say:

With the color sliders of your Q3 you can create an image that is identic to one shot with the monochrom camera. 

Regarding low light capabilities there are differences. But that is not where your question goes.

No. 

[jaapv]

On 4/25/2024 at 4:11 PM, pegelli said:

You asked a theoretical question, which I answered in the same way.

The answer is clearly "no", you are not working on the same file/image given the considerations I've given. I'm sure shooting test charts you can detect the difference in resolution so it's a real difference. How importanmt that is for you only you can determine. Secondly I agree that as long as you stay at base ISO the noise/low light differences can't be seen in the file. Only the a monochrome sensor and higher base ISO you can use a faster shutter speed as compared to a colour sensor with lower base ISO and that in itself is an advantage that is hard to quantify because it depends a lot on the conditions you're facing.

It is impossible to match the tonal differentiation from a Bayer filtered sensor to a file from a monochrome sensor. 

[Markey]

Apart from it being impossible to match the tonal differences I understood that slapping a Bayer filter over the raw filter to create colour not only reduces the resolution of that filter by between 20 and 30% but you also lose pixels in the process.

If you really want to shoot BW it makes sense to buy a monochrome sensor.

 

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[thegobi]

Just to follow on from what jaapv and Markey have said, it is difficult to get an idea of what monochrome sensors can do from looking at high-contrast example photos. 

It is a bit of a shame that so many people talk up the low light and detail aspects of a monochrome sensor but forget to mention the main difference: the ability to capture superior grey scales.

[RBNvRBN photo]

I was also on the fence about either a Q3 or a Q2M. I could get the Q3 for a good price so I ended up with a Q3, but I would have been just as satisfied with a Q2M if that was available for a good price. The Q3 is about a stop better in noise compared to the Q2, but the Q2M is better than the Q3 in low light. However, given the need to use a yellow or red filter to get the look I'm after that would negate some of the advantage of the monochrom sensor. The resolution difference is negated by the standard extra pixels the Q3 has over the Q2M. I think that with some effort you can have these files look almost the same. In fact, the color sensor gives you more leeway in post editing. Also, the AI algorithms of Adobe don't work to the same level on monochrom files. 

I don't understand the superior scales argument someone else brought up. A 14 bit file has 14 bits per channel (in each of the R, G and B channels in the color sensor or just one channel in the monochrom sensor). In a 8 bit file (JPG!!) there are only 256 levels per channel. That is not a lot... Which makes it important to always shoot in RAW in a monochrom camera. If I'm mistaken, please let me know.

The case for the Q2M (compared to the Q3) in my view is not so much about image quality. It is about shooting experience (or even fun). Being limited to B+W forces you 'to think B+W'. You start to look at tones and light in a different way. That influences your creative process to a high degree. It is not the same as shooting like you're used to in color and deciding afterwards to convert it to B+W, because it looks better.