Linsen-Puzzle Elmar 1:4/90

[Qglfsh]

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Hallo miteinander,

ich hatte zu einer kleinen Schraubleica (lt. Seriennummer 147821 eine Standard Chrom, aber mit Messsucher und Langzeitenwerk) auch etliches Zubehör bekommen, unter anderem einen Visoflex II mit Fokussierschnecken und Zwischenringen, und den Objektivköpfen Leitz Canada Elmar 1:4.5/65 und Leitz Wetzlar Elmar 1:4/90. Etliche der Teile konnte ich durch die Nummern bzw. Telex-Codes zuordnen.

Für das Elmar 1:4/90 bitte ich um Eure Unterstützung: Ich würde es gerne an meiner zur Ausrüstung dazu gestoßenen M3 direkt, also ohne Visoflex, nutzen. Gibt es für den fehlenden Tubus mit M-Bajonett eine Bezeichnung? Ist der ebenfalls abgebildete Tubus ggf. teil der Lösung? Das untere Gewinde ist M39, das obere M42, der Objektivkopf des Elmar passt nicht hinein, und auf der M39-Seite gibt es keine Kupplung für den Entfernungsmesser.

Hat jemand eine Idee für des Puzzles Lösung?

Danke und Gruß

Robert

 

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[Qglfsh]

Sorry, I realize this should have gone to the German part of the forum:

Long story short: I have an Elmar 1:4/90 lens head and a focusing helical of unknown extraction. I'd like to use the 90mm directly on my M3, and was wondering what the lens tube was called that completes the lens head. The helical that is pictured has an M39 male and an M42 female thread, but no rangefinder coupling, and the lens head is not fitting the thread.

Any suggestions.

Again, sorry for the post in the wrong forum.

 

Robert

[dg4mgr]

Der Tubus unten müsste für ein Hektor 4,5/135 am Visoflex I sein, der passt nicht fürs 90er Elmar.

[dg4mgr]

Um eine einzelne Einstellfassung ohne Objektivkopf aufzutreiben, wird man etwas suchen müssen. Vielleicht kann einer der Experten hier sagen, ob diese Fassungen bzgl. Steigung und Entfernungsmesser-Kopplung den Objektivköpfen zugeordnet waren, wegen Toleranzen in der Brennweite. Bei meinem Elmar 4/90 stehen im inneren der Fassung Zahlen mit Bleistift reingeschrieben die dafür sein könnten.

[spydrxx]

Likewise, mine has numbers scratched in int indicating it was at some point adjusted for the acual focal length of the lenshead. Of course when mounted on the Visoflex or bellows that doesn't matter. When you do find a focus tube, I'd encourage you to take it and the head to a competent repairperson and have him properly calibrate it for your M body. IMHO it is a fine lens, which exceeded my expectations.

[Qglfsh]

Thanks for your suggestions! I've seen the pencil marks on other lenses, so a professional mating of the two parts is the course of action to take if one crops up.

Robert

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello Robert,

Welcome to the Forum.

Early Leitz/Leica coding systems used Capital Letters. Around 1959/60 this was changed to Arabic Numerals.

Writing in pencil, or "scratching" inside of lenses & lens mounts sometimes means different things. Dependent on circumstance. These are best dealt with by discussing each 1 individually. And this is the Form to do this on.

The 16459/ZOOAN focusing mount that you have is for focusing a 135mm f4.5 Hektor, screw mount, or bayonet mount, lens head on a Visoflex I.

It can be used on a Visoflex II by putting a 16466/OUBIO adapter between the 16459 & the Visoflex II.

By the way, you can use your 65mm f3.5 Elmar, either chrome or black by adding a 16464/OTZFO, either chrome or black, between the lens & the Visoflex II.

To use the 4 element 90mm f4 Elmar lens head that you have on a Visoflex II you need a 16467/OUAGO focusing mount. It should work correctly without needing adjustment.

90mm f4 Elmar lenses between 1572401 & 697901 may need to be adjusted before they can be used. Lenses below 697901 may not always focus correctly over the entire range. 

I do not have the data for the focusing mount that allows the 90mm lens head to be used & focused on a screw mount or on a bayonet mount camera available right here at this time. I will look & get back to you here.

If you find a rangefinder coupled focusing mount for this 90mm lens that is for a screw mount camera: That is easily adaptable to ANY "M" camera, film or digital. To convert a screw mount lens mount for use on a bayonet mount camera you need a 14097, 98, or 99 adapter. The 14098 adapter will even bring up the 90mm frame lines in any "M" camera that has 90/28mm frame lines. 97 is for 75/50mm lenses. 99 is for 135/35mm frame lines.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

Edited April 15, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

[Qglfsh]

Michael, thanks for your detailed answer.

I'm set to use the 65mm and 90mm heads on the Visoflex, as I have the OTZFO and the OUAGO adapters.

I have a Hector 135mm for screw mount, so getting an OUBIO is a great idea for the Visoflex. Unfortunately either my M3's rangefinder, my China sourced M39=>M bayonet adapter or the Hector's rangefinder coupling seem to be out of whack - but this calls for more experimenting and a CLA further down the road.

The screw mount kit also contained an OTRPO spacer and two OTQNO spacers. Unfortunately the lady I bought the kit from knew nothing about the technical side, but the brief talk with her and the state of the gear shows it was well loved and well used.

Some more questions: The M39 male thread on the Visoflex II has a few screws around it. Is it interchangeable with a bayonet mount? Were these available seperately? Why is the 65mm head Visoflex only, apart from the missing frame lines or viewfinders? It would be neat to use it directly on the M3.

Best regards

Robert

[spydrxx]

IMHO a better idea on the Visoflex is to get an LTM->M adapter ring (these are inexpensive and plentiful). That way you not only can use the Visoflex with your M body, but if at sometime you decide to get a Barnack body you can use it there s well.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Robert,

It looks like you have a lot of good options for close up photography. You are lucky.

Some people have problems with other brands of adapters that are not Leitz/Leica, when they are adapting screw mount lenses for use on bayonet mount cameras. You might try 1 of the 14097, 98 or 99 adapters that I suggested above. 

Any of those 3 can also be used on the back of the Visoflex II to make it usable with an M3. No need to unscrew or add on anything else.

The arm that raises the mirror & releases the shutter is for EITHER a screw mount or for a bayonet mount camera. NOT for both. The arm can be interchanged with an arm for the other camera.

Or, You can use the release arm to raise the mirror, lift up the arm & then release the shutter with a cable release.

Doing the same with a Visoflex IIa (Button on the side, instead of a lever.) is a little different.

The reason for the choice of 65mm for the close focusing lens most likely was:

Leitz/Leica sometimes uses the approximate ratio of the square root of 2  (1.414+)  as a spacing multiplier for varying the distance between succeeding focal lengths that might be used to complement each other in a series. Such as succeeding multiples of progressively longer, long focus/telephoto lenses.

Because this ratio makes each succeeding lens cover 1/2 or twice the AREA of the lens before.

Such as: 200mm - 280mm - 400mm - 560mm - 800mm.

The traditional "normal" focal length of a camera lens is often considered to be: The diagonal measurement across from the top left to the bottom right of the film/sensor image capture surface.

For a 24mm by 36mm format that diagonal's measurement is 43mm (Approximately).

Leitz decided to use 50mm (Actually 52mm) for the "normal" length in their Leica camera of 1925.

But, when they decided to make a short, handy, multipurpose lens for their Visoflex II they decided to make it a little longer than the "normal" lens of 43mm. So, 43mm X 1.414+ = 61,2mm which was rounded up to 65mm.

Which, when multiplied by 1.414+ and then rounded gives 90mm as the next lens.

Handy.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited April 19, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again Robert,

As to why no range/viewfinder coupled focusing mount:

I would think it was because the lens was intended for close-up work & it focused to 33 centimeters/13 inches with the standard 16464/OTZFO focusing mount. And to even closer distances with various adapters.

While most M3's range/viewfinders focused to 100 centimeters/40 inches.

And other "M" cameras range/viewfinders mostly focus to 70 centimeters/28 inches.

Best Regards,

Michael

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Robert,

I cannot find the letter/number code for the range/viewfinder coupled focusing mount that allows a 90mm f4 lens head to be used with either a screw mount or with a bayonet mount camera.

But, it is there. Somewhere.

I found focusing mounts for other lens heads.

You might try asking in BOTH the Sammler & Historica  (German) and the Collector & Historica (International ) Sections. There are a lot of people in BOTH who know a lot.

Please keep in mind: The German Section & the International Section are 2 DIFFERENT Forums at the same place. 

They are NOT translations of each other.

Anybody can go back & forth & read & write in both.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited April 19, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

[Maarten]

Regarding the 65mm Elmar: this lens was developed to give Visoflex 2 users the option to have a lens that focusses from 33cm to infinity with the shortest possible focal length.

The lens was especially developed to give a good performance over a wide distance range, but on the Visoflex only.

[Qglfsh]

Amazing sleuthing work Michael and Maarten, thanks both of you!

I'm slowly getting back into a b/w workflow, and I'm building a bit of gear. The first film rushed through the M3 with the Nokton 35mm 1:1.4 and quickly scanned on a small slide scanner yielded the attached images.

Robert

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