S4 wish list

[Sarnian]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

If the S4 is twice as expensive as the Fuji GFX100ii/GFX100S then it's a dodo even before it's hatched. 🐣 

[Pieter12]

1 hour ago, Sarnian said:

If the S4 is twice as expensive as the Fuji GFX100ii/GFX100S then it's a dodo even before it's hatched. 🐣 

I don't think that has ever stopped Leica in the past.

[Pieter12]

3 hours ago, Sarnian said:

If the S4 is twice as expensive as the Fuji GFX100ii/GFX100S then it's a dodo even before it's hatched. 🐣 

Isn't the S3 already at that price point?

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, Pieter12 said:

Isn't the S3 already at that price point?

MSRP for the S2 back when it was introduced to market in 2009 was $22,995. The S-E (S006) was ten K less I believe, but the S3 is new around $19K. I am quite certain the S4 will stay on that price plateau.

[Sarnian]

5 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

Isn't the S3 already at that price point?

Yep, and which camera has sold the most..? 

Paying double the price for 'badge vanity' doesn't cut it in todays more turbulent times. Yes, the build quality is there (apart from corrosion-prone sensors and failing auto focus motors) but Leica need to get real and stop stroking their own egos. 

Disclaimer: I now own a Fuji GFX100S but did keep my 30-90mm when I sold my 007. I've since bought a S2 specifically so that I can use the 30-90mm. I can use the 30-90mm on my Fuji with a dumb adapter but not having auto focus is sometimes a bit 'tiresome' for my style of shooting. 

Anyway. Rant over! I will probably buy an S3 when I can get one second hand for around £5,000 (so in around 5 years' time). 

[Stuart Richardson]

The Leica SL launched at 7450 USD. The SL2 and SL3 launched at 7000, almost ten years later. The S system also launched at its highest price during its run. I think that is indicative that Leica priced them too optimistically to start, and tried to lower prices after the fact. But clearly they could not drop it too precipitously without looking really bad. That said, I am not sure how many cameras sold for full retail. I sold all my existing gear to get an S2, which at the time was 22,000 dollars or so. I only (lol) paid 12 for the S006 as an unused demo, a year after release. The new S3 was 13000 I think, after trading in the old S cameras. I think that Leica was in a bind in terms of pricing, because they had to offset their actual costs, which were likely fairly high due to the low volume and higher complexity of the SLR body, with the fact that they were the most expensive (other than Phase) and arguably least advanced/lowest resolution player in an already small and crowded field of medium format digital. I hope that for the S4 they learn their lesson, and price it where it likely should sit: at a modest premium over Fuji and Hasselblad, but not over 13 or 14K. Of course, I would like it to be less than that, but it is Leica we are talking about. But I agree with Sarnian that at double it may find some die hard Leica users to buy it, but it will not really have any impact on the rest of the camera market. I think that one of the best things about going to mirrorless is that it will give Leica a clean slate in terms of price point. If you think about it, the only reason that it would have to cost any more than an SL3 is just the sensor. It does not really cost any extra to make a slightly larger lens mount, and all the other components could be more or less the same. So the question is do they try to ramp up the price super high just because it is a larger sensor, or do they price it like an SL3, plus the actual extra costs. I think if they do the latter, they might find themselves with a hit on their hands. If you look at the best selling Leica these days, it is the Q line, and I think that is at least partially because people think they are getting a deal (Leica body and lens for less than the cost of an M and 28mm).

Edited March 21, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

[irenedp]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I wouldn’t say that the Fuji is garbage -it is a decent camera at a very nice price point-, but I sold my 100 to buy an S3, and have never missed it. I didn’t pay anything remotely close to full price for the S3, so agree that Leica may have a price problem when they launch the 4.  But it depends, Phase One sells cameras at 60,000 Euro a shot. If the S4 is unique enough, it will sell, although probably not to wedding photographers and well off amateurs. 

[Sarnian]

2 hours ago, irenedp said:

I didn’t pay anything remotely close to full price for the S3

There's a second hand (8+ condition) S3 at Camera West for £7,634. If I were single and didn't have a wife and two children to feed I probably would go for it! I bought my GFX100S, second hand, for £3,000. If the S4 listed NEW for £7,500 (the GFX100ii is listed at £6,999) then Leica might steal some custom from Fuji. If a customer already owns S lenses then £8,500 might be achievable. Fuji lenses are a lot cheaper than Leica S lenses so that is also a factor for new customers, e.g. "Shall I buy an S4 body or a GFX100S/Sii with a lens?"

I don't know; I just wish that I were richer!! 🤑

[tom0511]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb irenedp:

I wouldn’t say that the Fuji is garbage -it is a decent camera at a very nice price point-, but I sold my 100 to buy an S3, and have never missed it. I didn’t pay anything remotely close to full price for the S3, so agree that Leica may have a price problem when they launch the 4.  But it depends, Phase One sells cameras at 60,000 Euro a shot. If the S4 is unique enough, it will sell, although probably not to wedding photographers and well off amateurs. 

How you like the S3? I just did exactly the same move and got a used S3 in very good condition.

[tom0511]

If a new S4 works well with the S lenses then there might be quite some people buying it even for a little higher price, because they can use all these great S-lenses.

I do however hope that it will not be as expensive as previous S-DSLR. A mirrorless body should be less cost IMO.

[Jon Warwick]

9 hours ago, irenedp said:

I wouldn’t say that the Fuji is garbage -it is a decent camera at a very nice price point-, but I sold my 100 to buy an S3, and have never missed it. I didn’t pay anything remotely close to full price for the S3, so agree that Leica may have a price problem when they launch the 4.  But it depends, Phase One sells cameras at 60,000 Euro a shot. If the S4 is unique enough, it will sell, although probably not to wedding photographers and well off amateurs. 

I think the Fuji is a lot of image quality for the price point. For example, I recently compared images of identical scenes using the SL3 + SL 35 APO vs my GFX100S, and it was a very easy choice for me to stick with the medium format.

I think the choice was made easier given the upgrade to lens quality that is offered by the new GF 55mm (vs my 50mm and 63mm). That lens is starting to make the 100mp now sing compared to the early lenses.

I certainly prefer the SL3 in terms of build quality, and my M11 even more so ….. but Leica 60mp full frame vs 100mp medium format (even with a plastic feeling GFX100S) doesn’t produce the same rendering or tonality that I’m after. It takes me back to the days when I always preferred the build quality of my Leica M7, but took photos instead with the plasticky Mamiya 7 due to the superior image quality of the larger sensor.

I haven’t made the switch, but I found the new GFX100 ii was a much much better built camera compared to the GFX100S, the new camera has all the tactile feel (albeit still not a clean menu!) of a premium product, the latter really doesn’t IMHO.

I will certainly be very curious about the S4. Like it seems they’ve arguably done with the M and Q in terms of finding an iconic niche, I hope they manage to do that with the S4.

[tom0511]

I also believe ther is still an advantage of the bigger sensors. I cant tell about the fuji lenses but have experience with the xcd hassy lenses which are great but I still love the S lenses very much. 
 

[irenedp]

3 hours ago, tom0511 said:

How you like the S3? I just did exactly the same move and got a used S3 in very good condition.

I really like it very much, although not being stabilised, one has to be careful of using high shutter speeds when using handheld. I am happy with the change.

 

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, tom0511 said:

I also believe ther is still an advantage of the bigger sensors. I cant tell about the fuji lenses but have experience with the xcd hassy lenses which are great but I still love the S lenses very much.

The S3, and previous S models, has the same diagonal/image circle as the Fuji and Hasselblad. The GFX and XCD have bigger sensors by area, but it depends on your cropping. The S3 has a bigger sensor if you compose for a 2:3 ratio.

The upside to all this is that our S lenses will cover Sony's medium format sensor, as used in those two cameras. Leica has the option of moving to an off-the-shelf sensor for the S4 if they wish.

[tom0511]

I wouldnt mind 3:4

[tom0511]

but I also believe Leica is...2:3

[JohnathanLovm]

Assuming S4 stuck with Fuji and Hassy’s “old” 100MP sensor. The USD9K - USD10k is the max ceiling price they can go.

GPS, in camera Focus stacking, multishoot, SL3 lever of AF, build-in wireless flash trigger for Profoto/Godox, touchscreen and multiple UI top LED (like Phase One XF and GFX) and the content credentials (if they still serious about this).

With global shutter like A9III, I do hope Leica S4 is the 1st MF with global shutter instead next GFX or X3D.

[CCC]

My wishlist:

1. 3x4 or 4x5 aspect ratio sensor

2. 100mp or more Global Shutter sensor 

3. 4 button layout as with previous S and original SL (601)

4. Best EVF possible

5. PDAF

6. Focus Bracketing and Highres Multishot 

7. L-mount (if technically possible) 

8. Weather sealed as previous S

9. IBIS at least as good as Fuji

And please keep the design of the camera as the previous S, just without the mirrorbox becoming obviously slimmer. Ergonomically speaking, it's a milestone of industrial design. 

[mikelevitt]

On 3/18/2024 at 2:21 PM, shedboatshed said:

I'm not sure. The entry point to medium format from Fuji is so affordable that I don't think the S4 will be very successful. I know a lot of people shooting GFX now and very little on Hasselblad X1D/X2D. The S4 will likely come in at a bit higher in price than the X2D. I imagine the only people interested in the S4 will be die-hard Leica users or people working with commercial budgets/income. The nice part about GFX is that virtually any working photographer, freelancer or full time or whatever, can afford to buy into it.

As for wish list, I really hope they do 3x4, or even better, 4x5 aspect ratio. IBIS will be a must, and a flop without. Since M11/SL3/Q3 are all 60MP, I'm guessing the S4 will be at 100MP like GFX and X2D (more than I care for but understandable). Past that, they don't really need to do much. As long as the new lenses will be smaller, lighter, and ideally slightly faster, people will be interested.

EDIT: Also hope to see dual UHS-2 SD card slots, or CFExpress Type A so regular SD card slots will work. CFExpress B is overkill and too expensive, but as long as they're the same card slot that would be much better.

I have all 3 GFX bodies and I like them and make money with them.  The things I enjoy about my S cameras (006/007) don't matter to my clients at all.  I would love a 100MP S4 if it has a working adapter and keeps the look of the previous bodies.  Otherwise GFX is doing fine for my commercial work.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[mikelevitt]

On 3/22/2024 at 8:08 AM, Jon Warwick said:

I think the Fuji is a lot of image quality for the price point. For example, I recently compared images of identical scenes using the SL3 + SL 35 APO vs my GFX100S, and it was a very easy choice for me to stick with the medium format.

I think the choice was made easier given the upgrade to lens quality that is offered by the new GF 55mm (vs my 50mm and 63mm). That lens is starting to make the 100mp now sing compared to the early lenses.

I certainly prefer the SL3 in terms of build quality, and my M11 even more so ….. but Leica 60mp full frame vs 100mp medium format (even with a plastic feeling GFX100S) doesn’t produce the same rendering or tonality that I’m after. It takes me back to the days when I always preferred the build quality of my Leica M7, but took photos instead with the plasticky Mamiya 7 due to the superior image quality of the larger sensor.

I haven’t made the switch, but I found the new GFX100 ii was a much much better built camera compared to the GFX100S, the new camera has all the tactile feel (albeit still not a clean menu!) of a premium product, the latter really doesn’t IMHO.

I will certainly be very curious about the S4. Like it seems they’ve arguably done with the M and Q in terms of finding an iconic niche, I hope they manage to do that with the S4.

The Fuji 110mm f2 is one of the finest lenses I've used of any brand.  Ditto the 32-64.  Hard to see a reason to move in another direction.