Leica SL3 AF

[Fred Newberry]

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I am currently photographing wildlife with a Leica SL2, but am considering purchase of a Leica SL3.  I understand that the new SL3 has a much improved AF.  I was wondering if it is fast enough for photographing birds in flight. My SL2 does not do a good job of focusing on fast moving subjects.  For those shots I rely on the fast AF of an OM-1, which has a superior AF.   However, I had rather stay in the Leica family, primarily for the excellent quality of Leica lenses. 

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[Photoworks]

I would say it is a huge difference, plus for BIF the blackout time between frames framing and following the bird can be a challenge, just like SL2

[mmradman]

2 hours ago, Fred Newberry said:

I am currently photographing wildlife with a Leica SL2, but am considering purchase of a Leica SL3.  I understand that the new SL3 has a much improved AF.  I was wondering if it is fast enough for photographing birds in flight. My SL2 does not do a good job of focusing on fast moving subjects.  For those shots I rely on the fast AF of an OM-1, which has a superior AF.   However, I had rather stay in the Leica family, primarily for the excellent quality of Leica lenses. 

it is to be expected that SL3 would have improved AF and subject tracking performance, for one as I understand it it employees phase detect rather than slow (but accurate) contrast method.
Providing you are satisfied with longest almost Leica L lenses being 280mm (90-280mm zoom allegedly Panasonic design), longer lenses are either repackaged Sigma or third party, which is, surprise surprise, Sigma. It may sound picky or snobbish but the idea of buying into Leica is about optics, works same for other vendors.

No matter how hard Leica is trying they seem to lag half decade behind mainstream rivals, 5frames at 12bit, common, even Sony doesn’t do that anymore. There is a chance to improve in future FW updates but bottleneck would remain the image processor.

edit, minor spelling.

Edited March 10, 2024 by mmradman

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, mmradman said:

, for one as I understand it it employees phase detect rather than slow (but accurate) contrast method

AFAIK, it employs a hybrid approach that combines the best from both worlds.

1 hour ago, mmradman said:

Providing you are satisfied with longest almost Leica L lenses being 280mm

The excellent Sigma 500mm is almost here.

1 hour ago, mmradman said:

5frames at 12bit, common, even Sony doesn’t do that anymore.

Sony a7rV can shoot at 7fps max in lossless compressed mode.

[Fred Newberry]

Thanks to all of you for your input.

[Stevejack]

8 hours ago, Fred Newberry said:

I am currently photographing wildlife with a Leica SL2, but am considering purchase of a Leica SL3.  I understand that the new SL3 has a much improved AF.  I was wondering if it is fast enough for photographing birds in flight. My SL2 does not do a good job of focusing on fast moving subjects.  For those shots I rely on the fast AF of an OM-1, which has a superior AF.   However, I had rather stay in the Leica family, primarily for the excellent quality of Leica lenses. 

I think it depends what kind of BIF shots you're going for. There are very few areas in photography where gear makes the difference, but birds in flight is one of them. In comparison to your peers in the field you'll be handicapped somewhat using Leica gear in terms of your lens choices and the camera's autofocus ability but it doesn't mean you can't make it work. 

For the really fast moving birds I'll often use a red-dot sight attached to my camera's hotshoe. This allows me to track the bird easily at close range, even when zoomed right in, but I can't see through the viewfinder. One thing that I've learned from not being able to confirm focus lock, is that you really need to set your shot up to help the autofocus out. Find a patch of shade to act as a backdrop, find some nice cross lighting, make sure you're not using any of the auto exposure modes, and wait for the bird to enter the light. If you've set your exposure for a subject in bright light, when the bird enters the frame it will stand out against the backdrop and your camera will have a much easier time locking onto it.

I generally find that if my autofocus is struggling, it probably means I haven't spent enough time crafting a compelling image. If the subject isn't immediately recognisable to the camera as the thing it needs to focus on, the viewer's eye will likely struggle in a similar way. This is probably a roundabout way of saying that working with less capable gear will help you to craft better shots 😅

[helged]

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Some AF stuff here: 

 

[Ken Abrahams]

AF tracking SL3 

Edited March 11, 2024 by Ken Abrahams

[Dipal]

Honestly, shooting in burst mode would be a pain and I don't think the SL3 can handle it. My SL2-S was really good at this (obviously - smaller sensor, faster readout) but 4FPS is terrible, really. I got the SL3 but believe you should only ever use it for AF-S kinda scenarios and that has me up in arms. Not that I didn't expect the disappointment :| but still went out and bought the camera 

[Ken Abrahams]

3 hours ago, Dipal said:

Honestly, shooting in burst mode would be a pain and I don't think the SL3 can handle it. My SL2-S was really good at this (obviously - smaller sensor, faster readout) but 4FPS is terrible, really. I got the SL3 but believe you should only ever use it for AF-S kinda scenarios and that has me up in arms. Not that I didn't expect the disappointment 😐 but still went out and bought the camera 

I suspect many will do exactly what you have done Dipal. We have mostly always trusted Leica to absolutely come up with amazing cameras and lenses so why would we not buy one ---and find out. I guess there are a few "Leica Fans" who will always continue their relationship with the brand. I will. It's been a great journey with Leica, it's not hard to love their products and experience the highs and lows of the "relationship". I have got three SL cameras and I wonder why would I contemplate a fourth?

But the question is, will the AF in the SL3 quickly turn all that glass in the VE APO 90-280?  

[Fred Newberry]

6 hours ago, Ken Abrahams said:

 

AF tracking SL3 

Looks good.  Thanks for all of your other comments in my post. 

[Fred Newberry]

8 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I think it depends what kind of BIF shots you're going for. There are very few areas in photography where gear makes the difference, but birds in flight is one of them. In comparison to your peers in the field you'll be handicapped somewhat using Leica gear in terms of your lens choices and the camera's autofocus ability but it doesn't mean you can't make it work. 

For the really fast moving birds I'll often use a red-dot sight attached to my camera's hotshoe. This allows me to track the bird easily at close range, even when zoomed right in, but I can't see through the viewfinder. One thing that I've learned from not being able to confirm focus lock, is that you really need to set your shot up to help the autofocus out. Find a patch of shade to act as a backdrop, find some nice cross lighting, make sure you're not using any of the auto exposure modes, and wait for the bird to enter the light. If you've set your exposure for a subject in bright light, when the bird enters the frame it will stand out against the backdrop and your camera will have a much easier time locking onto it.

I generally find that if my autofocus is struggling, it probably means I haven't spent enough time crafting a compelling image. If the subject isn't immediately recognisable to the camera as the thing it needs to focus on, the viewer's eye will likely struggle in a similar way. This is probably a roundabout way of saying that working with less capable gear will help you to craft better shots 😅

Most of my BIF are shore birds year round and tundra swans and migrating ducks in the winter. Unfortunately my SL2 AF will not keep up, and I have gone to OM systems for BIF.  For other wildlife my SL2 is excellent.  I am planning a trip to Kenya next winter and I  will definitely be using my SL2 or maybe the new SL3.  Thanks for your input. 

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, Dipal said:

Honestly, shooting in burst mode would be a pain and I don't think the SL3 can handle it. My SL2-S was really good at this (obviously - smaller sensor, faster readout) but 4FPS is terrible, really. I got the SL3 but believe you should only ever use it for AF-S kinda scenarios and that has me up in arms. Not that I didn't expect the disappointment 😐 but still went out and bought the camera 

Both SL3 and SL2-S have 5fps max with AF. However, SL3 has better AF-C which makes high fps shooting easier. AF-C with SL3 seems fine to me. What issues are you having with it?

[Fred Newberry]

10 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Both SL3 and SL2-S have 5fps max with AF. However, SL3 has better AF-C which makes high fps shooting easier. AF-C with SL3 seems fine to me. What issues are you having with it?

I have not purchased it yet.  Getting input from those who have had experience with it and hope to make a decision for purchasing it soon.

[JohnSantaF4]

On 3/10/2024 at 6:23 PM, SrMi said:

AFAIK, it employs a hybrid approach that combines the best from both worlds.

The excellent Sigma 500mm is almost here.

Sony a7rV can shoot at 7fps max in lossless compressed mode.

I don’t think many would describe the AF as “best of both worlds.”For wildlife, that would be especially true, unless the animal is static. Of course, some have said the AF misses are chiefly due to the photographer.

[Dipal]

15 hours ago, Ken Abrahams said:

I suspect many will do exactly what you have done Dipal. We have mostly always trusted Leica to absolutely come up with amazing cameras and lenses so why would we not buy one ---and find out. I guess there are a few "Leica Fans" who will always continue their relationship with the brand. I will. It's been a great journey with Leica, it's not hard to love their products and experience the highs and lows of the "relationship". I have got three SL cameras and I wonder why would I contemplate a fourth?

But the question is, will the AF in the SL3 quickly turn all that glass in the VE APO 90-280?  

You have echo'ed my sentiment there Ken

It is always a wild ride when you love Leicas. As a fan, I love to support them but the cost of being in the SL ecosystem is too much these days

[Dipal]

12 hours ago, SrMi said:

Both SL3 and SL2-S have 5fps max with AF. However, SL3 has better AF-C which makes high fps shooting easier. AF-C with SL3 seems fine to me. What issues are you having with it?

I actually tried this with my kids and their friends at a playground yesterday and I'd probably get 1 in 4/5 shots that may be a keeper. Yes, the apparent lock onto the focus is good but the end result is very different. Maybe they can improve this with a firmware update? I'm sure they can. 

[petereprice]

Been testing the continuous AF this morning, experimenting with different modes and moving back and forth from subjects, and here is what I've found.

• I've been mainly in the AF-C mode, to test out the continuous AF on the SL3.  I can say with confidence that it works way better than the SL2 and SL2-S when it comes to locking on subjects with confidence.  When I had the SL2-S, whenever I was in AF-C mode, the lens would constantly breathe and reset especially with moving subjects.  This does not happen with the SL3. 

• The SL3 seems to track subjects moving side to side or up to down, with fairly good accuracy.  I've found it tracks eyes very well and for portrait sessions, I think this camera is pretty spot on.

• The SL3 does have issues with the subject moving towards you or away from you.  I tried multiple burst modes, and focus profiles, and the best results I got were when I was in 4ps AF-C, I got mostly 80-90% Accuracy.  However, whenever I up the burst mode past 4ps, AF-C keepers went down drastically.  This feels like it could be addressed in future firmware.

• It seems that when going into burst mode at higher rates, it seems to lose it's AF-C consistency and unless I reset the shutter button, I often will go out of focus and stay out of focus until I stop pressing the shutter and reset.  But again, when I brought down my bursts to 4ps, which seems to be the sweet spot on this camera, I saw a noticeable increase in accuracy.  I think results may vary in real world tests, as I was stress-testing movements to and from a subject.  So presumably if I had a live subject walking to and from me, I may get improved accuracy based on how fast the subject was moving.

To answer the original author of this thread - I think in general this camera is not good for fast-moving subjects.  However, your experience may vary and it depends on what direction and how fast the subject is truly moving.  I could see it tracking a bird fine if it was staying relatively in the same focal distance but moving from one side to the other.  However, if you were tracking the bird and it was moving towards you, and you had the burst rate up to faster than 4fps, I don't think it would catch all the moments you'd want at least reliably.  

We know the technology is out there, so I can only assume, that through firmware updates we may see improvements.  And maybe we will see those improvements in future firmware and an updates SL3-S, perhaps.

Just some initial findings, I've experienced so far.  

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[SrMi]

11 hours ago, JohnSantaF4 said:

I don’t think many would describe the AF as “best of both worlds.”For wildlife, that would be especially true, unless the animal is static. Of course, some have said the AF misses are chiefly due to the photographer.

I meant that a hybrid PDAF/CDAF combines the best of both AF methods: speed and precision.

 

[SrMi]

30 minutes ago, petereprice said:

tried multiple burst modes, and focus profiles, and the best results I got were when I was in 4ps AF-C, I got mostly 80-90% Accuracy.

Does 4fps work better than 5fps? Remember that AF does not wor above 5fps.