is Leica SL system for professionals?

[Stuart Richardson]

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A professor of photography who exhibits in museums and takes editorial jobs for national newspapers or any number of various work for hire jobs is not a hobbyist, they are a professional, regardless of where their main income comes from. Photography is their education, vocation and the thing they spend the most time doing. They may receive more money from a university to teach photography than they receive in sales of art or in editorial work, but referring to them as an amateur or hobbyist is insulting and inaccurate, and not in relation to how the world at large would refer to them. But whatever, this is an exceedingly tiresome and pedantic discussion. Think whatever you want.

Edited February 23, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

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[Olaf_ZG]

32 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

A professor of photography who exhibits in museums and takes editorial jobs for national newspapers or any number of various work for hire jobs is not a hobbyist, they are a professional, regardless of where their main income comes from. Photography is their education, vocation and the thing they spend the most time doing. They may receive more money from a university to teach photography than they receive in sales of art or in editorial work, but referring to them as an amateur or hobbyist is insulting and inaccurate, and not in relation to how the world at large would refer to them. But whatever, this is an exceedingly tiresome and pedantic discussion. Think whatever you want.

It depends on the definition of amateur, which means as far as I thought, someone being passionate etc about sth, but just not making its living with it. To me, a pro makes his living, the rest not. It’s not a qualification about experience, expertise, passion or whatever. The amateur can also have a professional attitude… but I guess we are going off topic…

[db24fps]

Putting aside the debate over what defines a professional, and the fact that any camera that meets the requirements of a working photographer's personal needs can be considered sufficient for professional use, I think baby steps have been taken in the right direction to make the SL more suitable in the broader ecosystem of professional photographic working environments (be it tethering support in Capture One, accessory support from lighting brands with dedicated triggers for Leica...etc). Like others have said, however, I think stumbling blocks inevitably remain with the customer support in terms of there being no equivalent to the Professional Services divisions of Canon, Nikon, Sony..etc whereby repairs, replacements and loans can be addressed at relatively short notice. With Leica being such a small company, it's difficult to imagine how they could ever offer such a thing. They'll never have the financial resources or large enough customer base to be able to do it I don't think.

The expense of the brand also makes it harder to own a duplicate backup, and mixing brands I find to be a colossal inconvenience as small things like different batteries, different chargers...etc soon become a big headache. 

Leica being such a niche brand also means that it's near impossible to be able to rent their cameras and lenses from established rental houses (I'm talking stills here, obviously. Not their cine lenses). With Leica stores in major cities across the globe, I have often felt they could do more to appease professionals if they were to maintain a respectable allocation of stock on hand to rent out themselves, alongside enough units to provide for loan should a professional find their own camera body or lens has to be sent away for the lengthy round trip to Wetzlar (US customers at least benefit from Leica having a repair HQ in New Jersey), but even that may not be considered financially worthwhile by upper management. 

 

On 2/21/2024 at 8:10 PM, Richardgb said:

While I'm sure Leica likes to see its cameras used professionally, I don't think the company is interested in the pro market. Sure, they trade on their used-by-professionals reputation and history, but when you look closely this is largely from the film-M days: 'When you buy Leica, you're buying a piece of photographic history' and all that. So be it, if it helps sell cameras and lenses.

When you look at how Canon, Nikon, and Sony indulge accredited photographers at major sports events and / or news organisations who've bought into their systems, Leica wouldn't have the resources to compete. Remember, too, how Nikon supported photographers in the 1960s as they took their early SLRs into Viet Nam...

 

I think this sums it up very well. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

There is no such thing as a professional camera or a camera for professionals. It's all just marketing. Camera sales to working photographers and organisations have always been a fraction of the market to enthusiasts, for the same cameras. Now the market for journos has evaporated it's even smaller. Canon and Nikon were/are very good at marketing their systems as professional. But they're marketing to every one else.

Canon (and to a lesser extent Nikon) used to have a pro service network. It was there as a backup to the system sales to newspapers originally. Now anyone who can pull out a credit card can join CPS. Hardly a pro service network anymore.

Remember that currently more *paid for* work is shot on the iPhone than any other camera. All that conflict coverage? Youtubers? Instagram? Also there are almost no specialist still photographers entering the market now. You may be a specialist working stills photographer but you're old. The young guys come in as visual creatives shooting stills and video. The definition of *professional* you guys have spent the last three pages defining doesn't exist anymore. Even Alan Schaller has a YouTube channel.......

Leica know this and that's why they position themselves as a lifestyle/luxury brand. Can you use their cameras as a working photographer? Sure. Did Leica intend the camera to be used that way? Nope. They don't care what you do with your SL3. As long as you buy one. But they'll stroke your ego and tell you you're using the same gear as the *pros* so you feel like e real photographer.

And that's not a dig at Leica. It's marketing. Good marketing. Not long ago most people would have considered anything larger than 24x36mm camera (aka: medium format) as being made for pros. And medium format was dying. Fast. Do you think Fujifilm and Hasselblad are marketing to the *pro* market? Do you think most currently available medium format cameras are being used by working professionals? But look on YouTube and see who's doing the selling of them to you. Marketing vs reality.

Gordon

[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Canon (and to a lesser extent Nikon) used to have a pro service network. It was there as a backup to the system sales to newspapers originally. Now anyone who can pull out a credit card can join CPS. Hardly a pro service network anymore.

 

yes, but you still get equipment repaired from Canon and Sony in less than a week in USA and EU. Not so much with Nikon, I am not up to speed!

Leica Just told me 7 months! and for a flash they told me it can't be fixed!

[Richardgb]

23 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

A professor of photography who exhibits in museums and takes editorial jobs for national newspapers or any number of various work for hire jobs is not a hobbyist, they are a professional, regardless of where their main income comes from. Photography is their education, vocation and the thing they spend the most time doing. They may receive more money from a university to teach photography than they receive in sales of art or in editorial work, but referring to them as an amateur or hobbyist is insulting and inaccurate, and not in relation to how the world at large would refer to them. But whatever, this is an exceedingly tiresome and pedantic discussion. Think whatever you want.

This question has been around an upsetting people since I was once involved in the photographic industry and, from time to time, was asked (or volunteered) to take photos of something or someone. My specialism was what was once called 'applied photography*' - used as a tool rather than for pictoral purposes (although that doesn't mean the the images I produced weren't attractive, it simply wasn't the reason they were produced).

The range of such applications (each of which was a specialism in itself) might, for example, include be recording the stages of a process, using light outside the visible spectrum, high-speed, time-lapse, at high magnfications, photogrammetry and so on. While this still goes on, a lot of the 'technical' side has been incorporated into various instruments by the respective manufacturers (not forgetting that the likes of Olympus, Nikon, and .... Leica have renowned imaging divisions); and now that professional imaging is to all intents an purposes digital, there's no need to know about the 'wet' side of photography, either.

Few would say that the researcher who produces images a 'professional photographer', although he produces images as part of his work (i.e. profession). But there are others, from Stephen Dalton's Borne on the wind of 1975 to today's Levon Biss, who produce stunning images which would not look out of place in a research report, who set out to produce a photographic record. If there is a dividing line, where does it lie?

[jaapv]

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1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

yes, but you still get equipment repaired from Canon and Sony in less than a week in USA and EU. Not so much with Nikon, I am not up to speed!

Leica Just told me 7 months! and for a flash they told me it can't be fixed!

…because the service department of Nissan was degraded to replace, don’t repair…

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

…because the service department of Nissan was degraded to replace, don’t repair…

Been a Leica flash....  they didn't offer a replacement. But they did ask to send it into service

[FlashGordonPhotography]

3 hours ago, Photoworks said:

yes, but you still get equipment repaired from Canon and Sony in less than a week in USA and EU. Not so much with Nikon, I am not up to speed!

Leica Just told me 7 months! and for a flash they told me it can't be fixed!

Yep. Leica is weak here. You need to be self-reliant when something happens. CPS was great here too, except for three years I lived on an island in Queensland. If I broke something on Friday I still had weddings and other things to cover Saturday and Sunday. So even with a two-week return (72 hours only works if your hand delivering in Sydney or Melbourne) that meant two or three of everything. I still do this so the, frankly pathetic, service times of Leica (4 weeks for a rangefinder calibration that wasn't done right and had to go back) don't bother me as much.

At least I can have a couple of cheaper Panasonic bodies in the cupboard, if one of my SL2's plays up. I can basically have a full emergency kit for less than the price of one Leica body. M's are more difficult but CV lenses are lovely.

I don't like it but I accept it as part of being a Leica shooter.

Gordon

[JohnathanLovm]

The Leica camera itself is “professional” enough to make money. But still not ideal when come to after-service and flash support for the premium price. 

[jaapv]

10 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Been a Leica flash....  they didn't offer a replacement. But they did ask to send it into service

Leica has always depended on third-party flash makers They should license their protocol to flash makers, but I guess the markup is too attractive. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

45 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Leica has always depended on third-party flash makers They should license their protocol to flash makers, but I guess the markup is too attractive. 

They do. Just not for a hotshoe speedlight, yet. Or maybe Godox doesn't see a big enough market yet for a big flash.

Gordon

[BernardC]

11 hours ago, JohnathanLovm said:

The Leica camera itself is “professional” enough to make money. But still not ideal when come to after-service and flash support for the premium price. 

To be more specific, the system is unattractive to photographers who depend on on-camera TTL/HSS flash and don't like Nissin flashes. I admit that that's an issue, but it's not as huge as some make it out to be. Furthermore, it's not controversial at all. We all agree that if you find yourself in the situation above, you should pick a different camera.

One of the great things about the L Mount is that you can switch to a different camera system and keep all your lenses.

[Photoworks]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

Leica has always depended on third-party flash makers They should license their protocol to flash makers, but I guess the markup is too attractive. 

I know that but if you can only buy it from Leica so that he works with your Leica, you should be able to offer a repair as well, even if it comes from third-party.

and the protocols seem to have really steep learning curve for this company like a profoto collaborated for two years before they were be able to come out with a trigger for the Profoto lights. From what I heard like I had to put out some money to with profoto to get them to do a compatible product because the market is too small.

I suppose as a like photographer, you shouldn’t care about flash, and just use the fast lenses and Available Light. It’s not like we talking about capturing lights, as a photographer, you want to shape your light and control your light.

 

[jaapv]

I guess the problem lies in the required pre flash for the M. 

[Olaf_ZG]

On 2/25/2024 at 3:35 PM, Photoworks said:

 

I suppose as a like photographer, you shouldn’t care about flash, and just use the fast lenses and Available Light. It’s not like we talking about capturing lights, as a photographer, you want to shape your light and control your light.

 

Huh? How can a photographer not care about flash (=light)?