1944 Leica IIIc K (Chromed)

[pgk]

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1 hour ago, jc_braconi said:

I just says that I know this kind of work ie sandlasting

it may well be, but there are some abrasion lines/marks clearly showing, suggesting to me that a mechanical abrasive such as sandpaper has been used too, on the underlying metal, even if it has been sandblasted afterwards. 

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[jaapv]

Just a pity that the rechroming has been done so inexpertly... Quite apart from the mechanical removal of the old chrome, there are places where the chrome has not taken, like the edge of the bottom plate and under the righthand screw of the top plate. The "vulcanite" replacement does not fit all too well either...

[jc_braconi]

18 hours ago, pgk said:

it may well be, but there are some abrasion lines/marks clearly showing, suggesting to me that a mechanical abrasive such as sandpaper has been used too, on the underlying metal, even if it has been sandblasted afterwards. 

May be there was a combination of two kind of process, our discussion is out of interest viewing the result...

[Hektor62]

Certainly camera 390175 was originally grey. The closest cameras I have seen are 390165K and 390178K and they are grey. Even the chrome plating looks bad to me and not made by Leitz

[jerzy]

Am 1.2.2024 um 07:46 schrieb alphonse2501:

Actually, this texture has more grip than 1945 IIIc (and looks slightly more shinny).

it looks to me like replacement vulcanite (4008?). Original vulcanite was applied on bare shell, lugs were fixed in the next step, on /through vulcanite. With replacements there are holes cut for the lugs, on one place you may see the shell

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[alphonse2501]

6 hours ago, jerzy said:

it looks to me like replacement vulcanite (4008?). Original vulcanite was applied on bare shell, lugs were fixed in the next step, on /through vulcanite. With replacements there are holes cut for the lugs, on one place you may see the shell

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Allow me to post original size image link for you: https://imgur.com/a/IHC9MKv

And I take additional photos: https://imgur.com/a/vPZaeBh

If this is recovered new skin, it could mean original cover already lost (due painted grey cover becomes brittle).

 

 

I guess the intact original parts left is shutter curtain. 

[alphonse2501]

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Update:

Now my IIIc K is on DAG's office. I asked Don for his comment on the style of re-chrome:
 

Quote

Who ever worked on the camera last put way too much curtain tension on the shutter curtains. And some of the re-chromed parts do not have the correct finish on them, the lens flange should be shiny, same as the tops of the advance & rewind knobs and all in all the chrome finish is slightly duller than it should be.

I think I have saw curtain tension overtighten from past many times. 
Also, it sounds Leitz has their own specific "blends (?)" for chrome finish in the past.

[dubois pierre]

I am adding an article about your IIIc K. Willy Hahne, founder of the famous Leica Historica in Burg Staufenberg, has compiled this list which includes both the Leica IIIc K for military use and the civilian versions.
List of gray IIIc all Willy Hahne models:

-N°387'201 to 387'300 (99) -N°387'501 to 390'524 (23) -N°391'026 to 391 039 (13) -N°387'201 to 387'300 (99) ) -N°387'501 to 390'524 (23) -N°391'026 to
391,039 (13) 391,424 to 391,699 (275).

Your IIIc K 390175 is therefore in this list.

It is actually known that the American army had recovered the last IIIc K and also a stock of gray paint and that these devices would have been intended for officers and intelligence services.

I had in my collection this gray IIIc K No. 390946 with its Summitar.

In any case, it's a shame indeed that this IIIc K has been distorted by re-chroming if that is the case.

 

             

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[Matlock]

23 hours ago, dubois pierre said:

I am adding an article about your IIIc K. Willy Hahne, founder of the famous Leica Historica in Burg Staufenberg, has compiled this list which includes both the Leica IIIc K for military use and the civilian versions.
List of gray IIIc all Willy Hahne models:

-N°387'201 to 387'300 (99) -N°387'501 to 390'524 (23) -N°391'026 to 391 039 (13) -N°387'201 to 387'300 (99) ) -N°387'501 to 390'524 (23) -N°391'026 to
391,039 (13) 391,424 to 391,699 (275).

Your IIIc K 390175 is therefore in this list.

It is actually known that the American army had recovered the last IIIc K and also a stock of gray paint and that these devices would have been intended for officers and intelligence services.

I had in my collection this gray IIIc K No. 390946 with its Summitar.

In any case, it's a shame indeed that this IIIc K has been distorted by re-chroming if that is the case.

 

             

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"N°387'501 to 390'524 (23)" Should that be (3023) ? My grey IIIc is 389015K.

[dubois pierre]

6 hours ago, Matlock said:

"N°387'501 to 390'524 (23)" Should that be (3023) ? My grey IIIc is 389015K.

Yes, you are right 3023 no 23. 

[derleicaman]

I have Leica IIIcK # 390 732 in my collection. It is finished in gray without any military engravings.

I did a search in Lager’s Wehrmacht Leica, and this camera is not listed. I did some research on this camera some years back and seem to recall it was issued to US Army Signal Corps after April/ May of 1945.

Alan, Fabrizio any thoughts?

[willeica]

5 hours ago, derleicaman said:

I have Leica IIIcK # 390 732 in my collection. It is finished in gray without any military engravings.

I did a search in Lager’s Wehrmacht Leica, and this camera is not listed. I did some research on this camera some years back and seem to recall it was issued to US Army Signal Corps after April/ May of 1945.

Alan, Fabrizio any thoughts?

Bill, I was told by the Leica Archive some years ago that one of my two grey Leica IIIcs was issued to the Luftwaffe . I forget at this stage whether it was the K or the ordinary one. Having checked with Jim Lager, Lars Netopil and the Luigi Cane book, I am convinced that it was not issued to the military, but was just sent to Berlin, usually shown as 'Bln' on the records. As I did not buy either camera as a military item, this did not bother me. Lars told me about 10 years ago that if an item was in Cane's book, it was definitely German military. If It was not, then specific proof would be required.

William 

[FPangrazi]

On 27/2/2024 at 04:12, derleicaman said:

Ho Leica IIIcK # 390 732 nella mia collezione. È rifinito in grigio senza incisioni militari.

Ho fatto una ricerca nella Leica Wehrmacht di Lager e questa fotocamera non è nell'elenco. Ho fatto alcune ricerche su questa fotocamera alcuni anni fa e mi sembra di ricordare che sia stata consegnata al Signal Corps dell'esercito americano dopo l'aprile/maggio del 1945.

Alan, Fabrizio, qualche idea?

Hi Bill, from research it appears that from serial number No. 390451 to No. 391190, with a few exceptions, they all have the delivery "US. Army 1945/46.

[Photo.JLG]

On 2/1/2024 at 1:36 AM, alphonse2501 said:

This is a 1944 Leica IIIc K with 1950 coated 5cm/2 Summitar. White "K" stamp on 2nd shutter certain. It comes with post-war brown leather case (with Summitar nose, I didn't take photo together).

Hi:

 

It seems that the camera you are inquiring about definitively had the vulcanate replaced.  Classic Connection also recently sold it as it is still listed in their site as "Sold". However, if you click through the photos of the item that are still posted on the Classic Connection site, it is clear that when Classic Connection sold it, it still had the original vulcanite and that the original vulcanite was clearly damaged on the right side of the camera and below the mount.  

https://classicconnection.com/product/leica-iiic-k-camera-with-50mm-summitar-lens-case-ex-rare/

Perhaps someone bought it from Classic Connection, re-leathered it, and flipped it?

You could contact Classic Connection to see if they have any more information on the history of the item. 

[Photo.JLG]

Also, my personal IIIC-K is Grey with serial number 390 981 for those keeping track. Leica also confirmed that the camera was delivered to the US Armed Forces on June 11, 1945.

 

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[alphonse2501]

Update: IIIc K has completed CLA by Don, and here's the SN on chassis.

I am asking some questions to him and waiting for reply.

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[alphonse2501]

I get my IIIc K camera back from Don, and a few comments:

 

Quote

Your lllc-k camera has ball bearings in the winding system & shutter & war designed for cold weather use. I must say that many of the 111-c-k cameras now don't seem to feel & wind as nice as the normal lll-c models.

The ball bearings that Leitz added to the shutter main roller was also done to the lllf cameras and was done better, the lllc-k was kind of a prototype to using ball bearings.

Also, I send email to Sam Shoshan of Classic Connection for any information they had. Probably they will reply on next week.

"Kind of a prototype to using ball bearings." I can agree this part, especially to compare with my 1945 US Army IIIc, ball bearings on winding knob doesn't have smooth wind.
(And I am not sure should I go to get IIIf RD for extra comparison...)

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[willeica]

Then you have the so-called 'half-race' cameras. There was a thread about this here and I was none the wiser about the exact difference, even after Jerzy showed a stripped down half- race camera. My only conclusion was that half-race meant 'less ball bearings'. 

This one, which is in my collection, was being sold as a IIIcK, which it is not, but it is a half-race camera. Despite its appearance, it actually works very well and is very smooth to use.

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William 

Edited March 31, 2024 by willeica

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[dubois pierre]

On 2/27/2024 at 4:12 AM, derleicaman said:

I have Leica IIIcK # 390 732 in my collection. It is finished in gray without any military engravings.

I did a search in Lager’s Wehrmacht Leica, and this camera is not listed. I did some research on this camera some years back and seem to recall it was issued to US Army Signal Corps after April/ May of 1945.

Alan, Fabrizio any thoughts?

A Leica IIIc N°395447 very interesting gray paint, originally chrome and repainted in 1946 assigned to the press service of the American army "Deutsch Amerikanish Nachrichten".

Analysis by Luigi Cane from 05/19/2011 "Dear Pierre. I regret a lot but I am quite informed about everything relating to deliveries from Maison Leitz to the armed forces of the Third Reich, during the Second World War. I specialized in this sector only. The very beautiful IIIc that you sent me is from after the war. I really don't know. Only that she is spectacularly beautiful.

The Leica DANA was delivered in 1946 to the American Army. Around 8,000 cameras were delivered at the same time. It is impossible to know what probably happened to these cameras. You have to judge for yourself: if the varnish seems completely new to you....then we may have problems. A camera, delivered in the enormous brothel of Germany, just after the war, delivered to a War Correspondent Agency, whose envoys wander through the debris and the dead, will be preserved absolutely without a scratch. Maybe?".

This Leica DANA, delivered in 1946 to the American army, once again well appraised, will be declared original. Proof that stocks of gray paint were well used after the war.

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[alphonse2501]

Proofreading my negative. I use my uncoated Summitar (1939) for this roll. No surprise I will need to find a washer for correcting frame position.

There is interesting leak from curtain. Not light leak but it leaks a bit of frame. 

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