More fuel for the different focal length debate

[Stuart Richardson]

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2 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

One way to interpret this is to say that a Q with a longer lens would sell well, perhaps even to people who already own a 28mm Q. But another way to approach it is to ask: What would happen if the GR III had a 47 or 60 megapixel sensor, allowing it to crop to zoom? How big would the market for a camera like the IIIx be, if you could painlessly crop a 28mm GR to 35, 50, and 75mm-equivalent fields of view?

I ask this because I owned both a GR III and a GR IIIx at the same time. (I've owned GR series cameras ever since the original GR Digital.) The IIIx was a fantastic camera. But eventually I remembered—because of my Q2—that I could map the GR III's cropping function to an easily reachable button (in my case, the Wi-fi button). This enabled me to crop the GR III to 35mm while still retaining a roughly 18-megapixel resolution. After doing some comparisons, I sold the IIIx. I don't carry a GR for ultimate image quality anyway; it's more for convenience. And owning two GR cameras was against the ethos of the system, for me. The 35mm and even 50mm crops on the GR III were serviceable for my purposes, even for portraits.

I know only a little about camera design, but my main hope for the GR series is that the GR IV will use one of the higher-resolution APS-C sensors, like the one that Fuji is using in the X-T5, enabling Q-like crop-to-zoom from a pocket camera. (And Ricoh's implementation of this is simpler than Leica's, because they just zoom the whole rear screen to the crop.) None of this is to say that I disagree with your basic point! But I think it's Ricoh who ought to be emulating Leica, not vice versa.

I had the opposite experience. I had the GRIII and sold it as soon as I had the GRIIIx, as the GRIIIx was so much better for my use. In general, however, I hope they don't emulate the crop to zoom, as I think it is a very inferior experience to just having a longer lens. At least with the Q, you wind up sacrificing most of the EVF to useless information, as it does not use the full EVF to show the cropped area. This is ok one step down (so from 28 to 35mm), but it gets worse the greater you crop. I know they are emulating a rangefinder, but a rangefinder has an OVF that is much clearer and sharper than any EVF, so it is easier to judge. Even then, however, using a 90 or 135mm on an M is made more difficult by the fixed rangefinder magnification. At least in that case you make up for it in the final results since the lenses are using the entire frame. When cropping in to zoom, you not only lose resolution, you lose tonality, increase the visibility of aberrations like moire and camera noise and just generally diminish your image quality substantially. In this sense, using a conversion lens is preferable, as even though it has a tendency to lower the sharpness of the lens, particularly in the edges, you retain the full resolution such that the noise levels stay low and the tonality remains rich. Ricoh does provide conversion lenses, though Leica is very unlikely to given the size and their disinterest in doing so for the last years (there are no teleconverters in S or L mount, for example). In my own comparison, I found that the Ricoh GRIIIx was better than the Q2 for most of my work because by the time you cropped the Q2 down to the Ricoh's angle of view, the results were not so different and the Ricoh lens was quite a bit sharper. Add in the vastly smaller size and better stabilization and it is just hands down the better compact camera for my use. I would love, however, to have a Q with a 40mm lens. The closest thing these days is an M with a compact lens, but obviously that is bigger, heavier and more expensive and does not have autofocus or stabilization.

In any case, those are my own reasons, and they clearly do not apply to everyone.

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[Stuart Richardson]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

I am sure that Leica is contemplating that market and until now has not seen an economically viable way of bringing out such a camera. After all, it would take considerable R&D to redesign the lens-shutter- sensor unit. 

I honestly don't think you or I or anyone else here has any idea what is going on at Leica and what their reasoning is. It could be that they are planning on putting one out, it could be they don't have the manufacturing capability given that they are already stretched, it could be they don't pay enough attention to their market, or that they are afraid if they make the Q with a standard lens it would eat up more sales from the M or L mount cameras. Certainly I don't know how much R&D is required to redesign the lens...presumably less than they required to do the TL/CL lineup which they dumped, or making odd forays into laser projectors or watches. Obviously since there is not one already they have not done it, but I am not actually convinced they have done some deep level research to figure out if there was a market. The one thing I have noted over the years, however, is that Leica has a good amount of arrogance at times regarding their decisions and while they do listen to customers, I think they do not have the customer forward approach of a company like Sigma, for example. At times I think they get a bit too reliant on a few close at home German photographers or their celebrity/influencer customers, rather than looking at the broader market. Perhaps I feel this more because of mostly being in the S and L systems, which while great, have been less successful or fashionable than the M mount cameras. I know that with the 50mm APO Summicron, for example, they have said that they had initially refused to put it out because they thought customers would not pay for a lens that expensive, even if customers said that they would. They risked it and were rewarded with a lot of sales. I kind of feel like this is a similar situation. But seriously, wtf do I know, I am just a photographer, not a businessman.

[thegobi]

11 hours ago, jaapv said:

I am sure that Leica is contemplating that market and until now has not seen an economically viable way of bringing out such a camera. After all, it would take considerable R&D to redesign the lens-shutter- sensor unit. 

I could be complexly misunderstanding the technology here, but the Q isn't a just body with a lens glued to the front... its a body with a lens grafted into it.

A new lens would require completely redesigning the optics and then there is the software correction to update (they are not going to just cram an M lens on the front--that was the whole idea of the 'concept' in the first place)

As jaapv said, this is a lot of R&D for a new 'concept' camera when the current one already 'does' 40mm...

If the demand is there they may do it, but I would expect it would need to be  a very high demand.

Not trying to be rude, but people endlessly wishing about it on forums is not going to make it happen--petition Leica for it!

Edited January 25, 2024 by thegobi

[Olaf_ZG]

6 hours ago, thegobi said:

I could be complexly misunderstanding the technology here, but the Q isn't a just body with a lens glued to the front... its a body with a lens grafted into it.

A new lens would require completely redesigning the optics and then there is the software correction to update (they are not going to just cram an M lens on the front--that was the whole idea of the 'concept' in the first place)

As jaapv said, this is a lot of R&D for a new 'concept' camera when the current one already 'does' 40mm...

If the demand is there they may do it, but I would expect it would need to be  a very high demand.

Not trying to be rude, but people endlessly wishing about it on forums is not going to make it happen--petition Leica for it!

If Leica isn’t reading this forum, some people need to be replaced at Leica…

[thegobi]

15 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

If Leica isn’t reading this forum, some people need to be replaced at Leica…

I totally agree with you 🙂

…but the number of people on this forum is still comparatively tiny.

This topic just keeps going round and round… but you seem to be posting in good faith so I would like to give my honest reply 🙂

People here have desired a 35, a 40, a 50 and some have even said a 75mm lens. Who should get their favourite lens first? This breaks the desire for another Q down into even smaller demographics. Where does Leica start?

I keep calling the Q a ‘concept’ camera—by that I mean the ‘concept’ is a crop-based camera. Some call it Leica marketing, but the fact is: the crop feature is a core part of what a Q (at least for now) actually is. Leica markets to people, so they clearly think there is a market for this ‘feature’. (Personally, don’t use the crop lines much at all, but then I actually like 28mm)

28mm is still a very popular street photography length. To change the base lens length would alienate everyone that uses it—and a second Q camera would have to be sufficiently different from the current one not to ‘double up’ too much using that crop concept.

…and for the record: I am a long time GR user and yes, I own a GRIIIx as well 😉

[colonel]

On 1/23/2024 at 10:49 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

I was browsing the rumor site to see if we might get a Ricoh GR Monochrome at some point, and I stumbled upon this interesting bit of information.

https://pentaxrumors.com/2024/01/15/the-ricoh-gr-iiix-is-the-best-selling-compact-camera-for-2023-at-yodobashi-camera-in-japan/#respond

Yodobashi Camera is a huge camera chain in Japan, similar to something like B&H. I just thought it was interesting to note that the Ricoh GRIIIx (40mm) outsold every other compact camera in 2023, despite being launched in September 2021, including the GRIII (28mm) and the Q3. It seemed to sell so much that it appeared twice on the top ten list...in number 1 and number 9, as a special edition. Now I am sure that part of this is due to some users already having a GRIII model, and subsequently buying a GRIIIx, but I would imagine most die hard GR people who wanted the second camera would have picked it up in 2021 or 2022. In any case, I think it is still interesting information about the relative popularity, at least in Japan, which is a major camera market. Both GR models outsold the Q3, but that is not surprising given the Q3 release date and the relative cost difference. Now, I am sure there are any number of caveats that can be found: this is only one store and in one market, the Q series is much more expensive and not as many people might buy both etc.

Anyway, I just found it interesting at least. I know that I love my GRIIIx, and I loved the Q2 body and sensor, but wished for a longer lens. It seems in Japan at least I am not alone!

The Q is a 28mm series. Obviously those who want different FLs will need other cameras.

Whilst GRs are great cameras, personally I can't use any camera which has to extend the lens to start.

Interestingly, if 28mm is the widest you want to go, it does start the drive to non-zoom. I would say 28mm and 35mm are fine on the Q3. Some people will say 50mm is as well. When we get to a billion pixel black silicon sensor, a telephoto lens will not be needed anymore.

Edited January 25, 2024 by colonel

[Le Chef]

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8 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

If Leica isn’t reading this forum, some people need to be replaced at Leica…

Reading this forum is like looking at a pimple on the ass of an elephant. Leica needs to be talking to people who don’t currently own a Leica, not just a small group of people inside the echo chamber. There are far more productive ways to learn about the potential in your market than reading threads here.

[Olaf_ZG]

2 hours ago, Le Chef said:

Reading this forum is like looking at a pimple on the ass of an elephant. Leica needs to be talking to people who don’t currently own a Leica, not just a small group of people inside the echo chamber. There are far more productive ways to learn about the potential in your market than reading threads here.

Curious if you could point me out to this ways. It is not only about potential, it is also about discovering problems, which they are quite some with the latest releases, and their scope.

Leica is plain stupid if they don’t eye this forum. And I never saw an pimple on the ass of an elephant, it could be the most beautiful thing to see.

But state me, how would Leica learn about market potential ?

[Olaf_ZG]

9 hours ago, colonel said:

The Q is a 28mm series. Obviously those who want different FLs will need other cameras.

Whilst GRs are great cameras, personally I can't use any camera which has to extend the lens to start.

Interestingly, if 28mm is the widest you want to go, it does start the drive to non-zoom. I would say 28mm and 35mm are fine on the Q3. Some people will say 50mm is as well. When we get to a billion pixel black silicon sensor, a telephoto lens will not be needed anymore.

The GR was a 28mm series until the x came. The Q is a 28mm series, until another f/l comes.

[Le Chef]

1 hour ago, Olaf_ZG said:

But state me, how would Leica learn about market potential ?

There are many ways using both qualitative and quantitive market research to determine appeal, areas of confusion, purchase intent against various price points, source of business. For Leica you would interview/research camera owners from your competitive set and current Leica owners who might trade for a new model or add on to what they have. If you have a big enough data set you can predict most things using the right research tools.

[Olaf_ZG]

7 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

There are many ways using both qualitative and quantitive market research to determine appeal, areas of confusion, purchase intent against various price points, source of business. For Leica you would interview/research camera owners from your competitive set and current Leica owners who might trade for a new model or add on to what they have. If you have a big enough data set you can predict most things using the right research tools.

They could do that, but do they do it? I assume registration is one part to get to know your customers, yet, as far as I know, unused. Market research and marketing is a fussy world, with lots of money spend and ROI never clear.

Current Leica owners are here, their voice should not be ignored.

May be I am not a normal consumer, but regarding Leica, this is the place I go to, not to Leica’s site. Regarding problems, I read it here, regarding non-responsiveness of Leica, the same. Regarding great things, the same. To me, this site has a wealth of info, which I can’t believe, couldn’t be interesting for Leica as well.

Edited January 25, 2024 by Olaf_ZG
Added last sentence

[jaapv]

Leica does read this site and some high-up staff even participate anonymously. 

[Le Chef]

1 hour ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Market research and marketing is a fussy world, with lots of money spend and ROI never clear.

Not true. I spent 40 years advising Fortune 100 clients on this including market modeling so know it works.

[thegobi]

Just to stretch this out as nauseam…. 😝

Leica is still a small company that has to fight against the likes of juggernauts like Canon or Sony or Nikon.

What does it offer that they do not? Why Leica?

I find it interesting when users (especially new users) approach Leica cameras from a ‘it doesn’t work like my Sony does’ standpoint. No it doesn’t—that’s the point.

The Q series is a very bold move for Leica (after some obvious false starts) for having a foot in the ‘new’ world of mirrorless, autofocus etc, but still having the other foot in the traditional photography world. It’s a balancing act to keep these camera being Leicas.

The more people demand that their Leicas are just like Sonys with a Leica sticker on them, the more the company is directly competing with Sony—and Sony would crush them like a bug.

@Le Chef is dead on—one thing I have been very impressed with is how good Leica is with marketing and customer care. This is not the same Leica, at the turn of the century, that many thought was going to go belly up. 😉

[Aram Langhans]

I find the idea of this being a focal length debate kind of amusing.  There is no debate.  The Q series is doing exactly what it is intended to do.  It is a fixed lens camera that is trying to be as versatile as possible.  If they had marked a 35mm like Sony it would not serve those who like wider.  But at 28mm it does a very good job of servicing those who like 35mm.  And we can work our way up from there to 50mm and 75mm.  If you want a smallish camera with autofocus that can fill many roles and take excellent photos, then a Q series might fill the bill for you.  If you want ultra wide and super telephoto then obviously it does not work for you. 

I shoot a fairly narrow range of focal lengths, but most of the time I am in the 24-90mm range.  But I did not want to carry around my Nikon system with the large body and lenses and weight with my ailing back and knees.  I held off on the Q as 24mm just did not give me the flexibility for longer focal lengths with high quality images I wanted. I had looked at the Sony R1, but 35mm was too limiting.  When the Q2 came out I was very interested since it was 48MP and increased the crop potential.  I was still sort of debating, but my wife got me one for my birthday, and very quickly for most shooting I left my Nikon at home and was happy.  I did bite on the Q3, but not really for the mostly insignificant gain in MP from 48-60.  I do a lot of low light work, so the Q3 sensor appealed to me and my aching body does appreciate the tilting screen.  The Q3 has more bugs/quirks than the Q2, but I can ignore them most of the time for the gains I made in sensor/rear screen capabilities. 

So, if you think there is a debate you are looking at the wrong camera.  I think Leica would be foolish to market a camera that is less versatile by changing the lens to a longer focal length which would most likely mean a larger lens.  The Q series works better than any other camera for what it is designed to do and any changes like being suggested would defeat its purpose.  Buy another camera and be happy.

[fotografr]

7 hours ago, Le Chef said:

Not true. I spent 40 years advising Fortune 100 clients on this including market modeling so know it works.

Well I'll be damned. I thought from your user name that you were a restaurateur. 

[Stuart Richardson]

I find the "I like the camera how it is, so if you don't, f off" attitude really interesting. It's as if adding a focal length better suited to normal/telephoto shooting would somehow retroactively harm the existing user base somehow? It seems really small minded to me. I also think most of the users who are advocating for a longer lens in a Q understand the Q concept perfectly well, and usually they like nearly everything about the Q other than the angle of view. As noted above, there is a very long tradition of fixed lens cameras being offered in a wide and normal focal length so that users can choose the one that suits their needs best. The intention of sharing this post was to demonstrate that some of the only actual data that is public and recent demonstrates that customers seem to have reacted extremely positively to the introduction of a longer lens version of an existing 28mm only camera, at least in a major camera market. Yodobashi has something like 20 stores and is the second largest online electronics dealer in Japan. If Leica does not decide to do it, well then that's that.

Edited January 26, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

[jaapv]

I didn’t see anybody react with F off The negatives I saw were either doubts about the added value of a tele-Q or the viability in the market. 

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[thegobi]

I have absolutely no problem if Leica wants to make another version of the Q. 🙂

My reason for buying a 40mm GRIIIx was I had all the other ones, and hey! It was something different!

@Stuart Richardson in theory, I am the target market you are talking about 😉

I don’t think anyone is telling anyone to f off—I am just hearing people being doubtful that Leica has the same kind of market as Ricoh in Japan.

I am curious if the 40mm version came about when more outside of Japan started taking interest in the camera and their market research pointed to a demographic that preferred that fl.

….or, they just ran out of things they could change for a new model 😝

(but don’t talk to GR owners about dust on the sensor—touchy topic 🤣)