M-mount wide angle on Lumix S5II vs Sony a7R series?

[soccerrick10]

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2 hours ago, soccerrick10 said:

I’ll try to get some comparison shots done today. I’ll start with the Summilux and try to get you something to evaluate.

@MindsEye  Here you are - just some quick and dirty comparisons.

First, let me say I HATE doing these tests.  Not so much the work or the sharing.  It's the complaining afterward of "why didn't you do this?" or "why did you do it that way?".  It usually concludes with an outcry of "these tests are invalid and this guy doesn't know anything!"

OK, so I'm a little cynical.  But here you go...

The test subjects are just three boxes with lots of text for evaluation at the center and corners.  I'll post these as 6 separate posts.  

The first 2 will be the Lumix S5II with the S-50mm f/1.8 including wide open and then 2.0, 2.8, 4.0, 5.6 and 8.0.  The next 2 will be the Summilux-M ASPH 50mm.  The final 2 will be the Summicron-M ASPH 28mm.

Now for the details:

• These were taken on a tripod about 0.8m away.  
• There is nothing fancy or artistic.  
• The tripod stayed "mostly" in the same spot.  
• It's hard to change lenses without bumping the position.  
• The S-50mm seems a little wider than my 50mm Summilux-ASPH
• There is slight vignetting on the M lenses on the right.  I think that is due to the primary light coming directly from large windows on the camera right.  With both those lenses, I use aftermarket hoods to keep the slide out hoods protected when I am out and about. I probably should have taken them off.
• The "softness" of the Summilux in the corners is well documented and one of the reasons I love this lens.  It is my primary "people" lens.  So, what I see on the Lumix didn't surprise or worry me.

There must be a better way of doing this.  But, I'm not astute enough to know that.

I think that is all.  Have a look and let me know what you think

 

 

Edited January 21, 2024 by soccerrick10

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[soccerrick10]

Lumix S-50mm: Post 1 of 2 (1.8, 2.0, 2.8)

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[soccerrick10]

Lumix S-50mm Post 2 of 2 (4.0, 5.6, 8.0)

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[soccerrick10]

 

Summilux-M ASPH 50mm (Post 1 of 2)   

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Summilux-M ASPH 50mm (Post 2 of 2)

 

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Summicron-M ASPH 28mm (Post 1 of 2)

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Summicron-M ASPH 28mm (Post 2 of 2)

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[soccerrick10]

I'm not sure how much can be concluded from the JPEG's.  I shot these in raw and converted in Lightroom.  I don't have a location where I can post the raw files.  But, if anyone wants to receive them, let me know and we can figure that out.

 

[MindsEye]

13 hours ago, soccerrick10 said:

@MindsEye  Here you are - just some quick and dirty comparisons.

First, let me say I HATE doing these tests.  Not so much the work or the sharing.  It's the complaining afterward of "why didn't you do this?" or "why did you do it that way?".  It usually concludes with an outcry of "these tests are invalid and this guy doesn't know anything!"

OK, so I'm a little cynical.  But here you go...

The test subjects are just three boxes with lots of text for evaluation at the center and corners.  I'll post these as 6 separate posts.  

The first 2 will be the Lumix S5II with the S-50mm f/1.8 including wide open and then 2.0, 2.8, 4.0, 5.6 and 8.0.  The next 2 will be the Summilux-M ASPH 50mm.  The final 2 will be the Summicron-M ASPH 28mm.

Now for the details:

• These were taken on a tripod about 0.8m away.  
• There is nothing fancy or artistic.  
• The tripod stayed "mostly" in the same spot.  
• It's hard to change lenses without bumping the position.  
• The S-50mm seems a little wider than my 50mm Summilux-ASPH
• There is slight vignetting on the M lenses on the right.  I think that is due to the primary light coming directly from large windows on the camera right.  With both those lenses, I use aftermarket hoods to keep the slide out hoods protected when I am out and about. I probably should have taken them off.
• The "softness" of the Summilux in the corners is well documented and one of the reasons I love this lens.  It is my primary "people" lens.  So, what I see on the Lumix didn't surprise or worry me.

There must be a better way of doing this.  But, I'm not astute enough to know that.

I think that is all.  Have a look and let me know what you think

 

 

Thank you so much for doing this! I don't love doing tests either and I appreciate you doing this. I understand your cynicism when posting to forums. It's nice that you gave me all the details. That helps. I've only looked at a few so far but will look at the rest of them.

All best,

Joel

[soccerrick10]

No problem at all.  I hope it helps and if you want the raw files, let me know.

The two things I see out of this is just how good the free S 50mm f/1.8 lens is from Panasonic and yes, there is a small degradation of the M lenses in the extreme corners.  I think it is very small for almost all of my needs.  I think I’ll shoot these with my M11M for direct comparison.

Final thought - I really loved the SL2-S.  It was the poor autofocus that made me sell it.  Using the S5II makes me hopeful for the SL3.  In the mean time, the S5II will fill in nicely for the next year or so until the SL3 is readily available.  I think that if it had a higher resolution viewfinder, I’d be waiting even longer before considering the SL3.

[Archiver]

I can only say from my experience with the original S5 that wide angle lenses beyond 35mm start to show some issues, and this depends on the lens. For example, the Zeiss Biogon 21mm f2,8 is superbly sharp and crisp on the M9, but doesn't have the same snap, 3D look or crispness on the S5. The Zeiss Distagon 35 is unbelieveable on the M9 but somehow not quite and ridiculous on the S5. The Voigtlander Nokton Classic 35mm f1.4 MC is not very good on the S5 at all, with sharpness issues and a lot of smearing/doubling in the outer thirds of the image. On the other hand, the Voigtlander 15mm f4.5 v1 is surprisingly good on the S5.

I am unsure if the S5 II's filter stack thickness is different, but those are my results from the S5. And I totally agree with @soccerrick10 that the Panasonic 50mm f1.8 is surprisingly good. I've used it for many shoots and the results have been excellent. The only issues have been autofocus speed and accuracy for fast moving subjects, which are issues of the S5 in general.

In the following post, I outline my experiences with all my M mount glass:

 

[Babylonia]

Am 22.1.2024 um 23:24 schrieb Archiver:

...The Voigtlander Nokton Classic 35mm f1.4 MC is not very good on the S5 at all,
with sharpness issues and a lot of smearing/doubling in the outer thirds of the image...

That was also my experience to another model within the Voigtländer "Nokton" optic family line, the 35mm F1.5 Nokton.
(My experience written more early within this topic  < HERE > ).
Not described by me as "smearing/doubling" images. But very familiar results. (Especially wide open).

Thanks for the list of several test results done by M-lenses within another subject ---> < HERE >
 

Edited January 27, 2024 by Babylonia

[MindsEye]

On 1/22/2024 at 2:24 PM, Archiver said:

I can only say from my experience with the original S5 that wide angle lenses beyond 35mm start to show some issues, and this depends on the lens. For example, the Zeiss Biogon 21mm f2,8 is superbly sharp and crisp on the M9, but doesn't have the same snap, 3D look or crispness on the S5. The Zeiss Distagon 35 is unbelieveable on the M9 but somehow not quite and ridiculous on the S5. The Voigtlander Nokton Classic 35mm f1.4 MC is not very good on the S5 at all, with sharpness issues and a lot of smearing/doubling in the outer thirds of the image. On the other hand, the Voigtlander 15mm f4.5 v1 is surprisingly good on the S5.

I am unsure if the S5 II's filter stack thickness is different, but those are my results from the S5. And I totally agree with @soccerrick10 that the Panasonic 50mm f1.8 is surprisingly good. I've used it for many shoots and the results have been excellent. The only issues have been autofocus speed and accuracy for fast moving subjects, which are issues of the S5 in general.

In the following post, I outline my experiences with all my M mount glass:

 

This is helpful. Thanks. I think I forgot to mention that my VM 75mm f1.9 Ultron performs extremely well on the S5IIx, even at 96MP. But I sort of expected that and was most interested in (the more challenging) wide angle performace. I had a chance to go to a Leica store near me and compare some lenses and cameras. I shot on an SL2, the S5IIx, and my IR modified X-T5. I shoot a lot of infrared so that's a consideration for me too but that's really a different discussion. I was limited to their used gear. I shot using a VM 21mm f1.8 Ultron Asph. and a Leica 28mm f2.8 Elmarit. I was surprised how well the VM 21mm performed on the S5II. I ended up buying it.

I wish I was able to compare directly to a Sony body because I would prefer the size and weight of that body but there is the issue of the stack being 0.6mm thicker than S5II. My tests weren't very well controlled in the store as they would be in my studio. But it was still helpful.

Edited January 28, 2024 by MindsEye
typo

[Babylonia]

Thank you  @MindsEye   for your feed-back.
Nice to hear you ended up for buying the  VM 21mm f1.8 Ultron Asph.

Another lens with this focal length, as tested by @Archiver  (he tested Zeiss Biogon 21mm f2.8 ).
However, testing done by different persons / different situations. Seems this  VM 21mm f1.8 Ultron Asph.  could be a winner.
And be added to the growing list list of "personal" experienced M-lenses to be used on L-mount camera's. 👍

[MindsEye]

6 minutes ago, Babylonia said:

Thank you  @MindsEye   for your feed-back.
Nice to hear you ended up for buying the  VM 21mm f1.8 Ultron Asph.

Another lens with this focal length, as tested by @Archiver  (he tested Zeiss Biogon 21mm f2.8 ).
However, testing done by different persons / different situations. Seems this  VM 21mm f1.8 Ultron Asph.  could be a winner.
And be added to the growing list list of "personal" experienced M-lenses to be used on L-mount camera's. 👍

Of course. I hope it helps some others. When I get some time I'll test the VM 21mm f1.8 Ultron Asph properly. Ultimately I may end up getting a Tri-Elmar 16-18-21 (aka WATE). I really liked that lens when I owned it. Though that was on an M8, which of course, is a cropped format. The VM 21mm is large-ish for an M lens but still tiny compared to native FF L-mount or E-mount lenses. 

Thanks again to @soccerrick10 @Archiver @Babylonia, et al, for the valuable input. I will update here when I get some more time on lenses and bodies.

Happy shooting!

Joel

[Simone_DF]

I do have the 21mm Ultron too and I can confirm it works well with the SL2-S and Sony bodies too

[serhan]

Here is old tests of Wate and CV 21mm 1.8 on Sony A7R:

https://3d-kraft.com/index.php%3Foption=com_content&id=148:ultra-wide-angle-m-mount-lenses-on-sony-a7r

CV 21mm 3.5 is a good lens also.

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-voigtlander-vm-21mm-3-5-color-skopar/

I used CV 21mm 3.5 on Canon R5 which has 1.25mm topping thickness per Kolari. Also Sigma FP has 1.3mm topping thickness per Kolari. Nikon 1.1 is not accurate per Lars's postings:

 

[MindsEye]

On 2/3/2024 at 7:50 PM, serhan said:

Here is old tests of Wate and CV 21mm 1.8 on Sony A7R:

https://3d-kraft.com/index.php%3Foption=com_content&id=148:ultra-wide-angle-m-mount-lenses-on-sony-a7r

CV 21mm 3.5 is a good lens also.

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-voigtlander-vm-21mm-3-5-color-skopar/

I used CV 21mm 3.5 on Canon R5 which has 1.25mm topping thickness per Kolari. Also Sigma FP has 1.3mm topping thickness per Kolari. Nikon 1.1 is not accurate per Lars's postings:

 

Thanks for the links and info! Since my last post I got hold of a Sony body and will be testing it with VM 21mm f1.8 Ultron and VM 75mm f1.9 Ultron. When I have some comparisons between that and S5 IIx I'll share my thoughts. I may have already mentioned I tried a couple lenses at Leica store with SL2 and Lumix S5 IIx and I shot a few on my Q3 to compare with Leica 28mm Summicron-M.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jaapv]

This is all very interesting but not surprising given that only the M, SL and CL have sensors designed with M lenses in mind. 

[01maciel]

Although the S1R is not identical to the S5II, it is quite similar. I plugged almost all my M lenses onto the S1R and was curious to see what happened. Some deliver a poor result, some good and some are even surprisingly good. One of the latter was the for example the Voigtländer Heliar 50mm f1.5 VM @f8 or so. I only increased the contrast a little, as the Heliar is somewhat low-contrast anyway, and slightly the colour balance. Otherwise no lens corrections. The edges are pretty good.
S1R + Voigtländer Heliar 50mm f1.5 VM

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