why Q~Q3 are 28mm, not 35 or 24?

[M11 for me]

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb Olaf_ZG:

According your name, I guess you have a M. I also guess you have more lenses? Why? 

You are right: I have an M. And very iften I go out with one single lens. And due to that fact I decided to go for a Q (I had Q2 and now Q3). For travel and landscape FOR ME the 28 is perfect. And I have zero issues to crop either in camera or later in LR Classic. In cases I need 21mm or 50mm then I leave the Q at home and take the camera that suits. Most time its the M. In case that I need fast Autofocus and fast lenses I use Canon R5.

Another thing about your 

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Olaf_ZG:

I also guess you have more lenses? Why?

Since the M has 60Mpix I changed my habits with lenses. Wheras before (M10) I preferably took 28mm plus 50mm in a 2 lens combo. With the M11 I tend to go for 21mm and 35mm. Croping does the rest. My aim with Leica is always to have the least weight possible. 

 

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[jaapv]

2 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

It is not about the concept, it proofs there is a need for different f/l’s.

I guess you were the one who bought a black Ford as well, as that was the only choice.

In the time of Tin Lizzie they did not have Megapixels. 

[Olaf_ZG]

I will leave the discussion here, as those convinced the Q is perfect as it is, won’t leave me wishing for a tighter view. Funny though, the same people have several other lenses and/or systems aside as the Q - in the end - doesn’t serve it all.

To me, there is an audience for a 40/50 variant. I would buy it, if it comes out relatively soon. If not, I will buy something else. Everybody happy.

 

[jaapv]

Oh, I enjoy discussing. However, if you don’t believe me, maybe some established authorities can change your mind:

 

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[Olaf_ZG]

You can’t leave it, can’t you. But ok, let’s assume you are right, 60mp and 28mm is enough.

still you didn’t explain me why you have a SL and zooms. Its all the same in the end.

Leica marketing really got you.

[Le Chef]

2 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Leica’s marketing killed its own expansion.

That’s the flaw: you’re not seeing the bigger picture. Leica will have/should have looked at cannibalization between products and where they stand to make the greatest gains in either profitability or volume.

For example: As a retailer if I sell one SL2 body I’m already ahead of the sale of one Q3. You still need to buy a lens, any lens, and the retailer is ahead of the game. The best option is to sell the Q3 as a n addition to a current Leica owner, whether they have an M system or an SL system. That’s where the advantage is. Selling a Q3 -50 takes sales away from L or M lenses in that scenario.

Maybe I’m wrong, if so I’m happy for @bobtodrick to correct me.

[Olaf_ZG]

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1 minute ago, Le Chef said:

That’s the flaw: you’re not seeing the bigger picture. Leica will have/should have looked at cannibalization between products and where they stand to make the greatest gains in either profitability or volume.

For example: As a retailer if I sell one SL2 body I’m already ahead of the sale of one Q3. You still need to buy a lens, any lens, and the retailer is ahead of the game. The best option is to sell the Q3 as a n addition to a current Leica owner, whether they have an M system or an SL system. That’s where the advantage is. Selling a Q3 -50 takes sales away from L or M lenses in that scenario.

Maybe I’m wrong, if so I’m happy for @bobtodrick to correct me.

Sadly I guess I agree with you here. At the other hand, we don’t know how many Q’s were sold to people owning a SL/M already and those who bought it as a p/s only.

At the other hand, I would still buy a Q40/50 as an addition to the m/sl, as the system is not a replacement.

The m offers a unique experience, the sl ultimate quality and the q sits in between, as a perfect edc. Question is only how you see your every day life? Cropped or not? I prefer not cropped.

[LocalHero1953]

Just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean their view is shaped by marketing. Some Q owners are actually quite intelligent😉.

But seriously, I have a Q2 and I have a SL2-S with a number of lenses. The latter are wonderful, and I wouldn't be without them. But I would never take the SL system travelling, nor would I use it for family snaps and social - far too heavy and inconvenient. So I have the Q2; I accept its limitations, but I am happy to crop it, to a certain extent.

Would I prefer a Q with a longer lens for the same usage? Probably not, because my usual FL range starts at 28. For what I want a Q28 is versatile and useful and a Q35 would be less so.

Only Leica can tell if I am the norm or a rarity among its chosen market. I suspect I am fairly typical among those looking for a single lens P&S because the typical smartphone camera such people are coming from has a 28mm equivalent lens. Ricoh started with 28mm in 1996, and stayed with it for many years, and has only recently expanded the range.

If Leica chooses to make a Q35 or even a Q50, good luck to them.

[Olaf_ZG]

2 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean their view is shaped by marketing. Some Q owners are actually quite intelligent😉.

But seriously, I have a Q2 and I have a SL2-S with a number of lenses. The latter are wonderful, and I wouldn't be without them. But I would never take the SL system travelling, nor would I use it for family snaps and social - far too heavy and inconvenient. So I have the Q2; I accept its limitations, but I am happy to crop it, to a certain extent.

Would I prefer a Q with a longer lens for the same usage? Probably not, because my usual FL range starts at 28. For what I want a Q28 is versatile and useful and a Q35 would be less so.

Only Leica can tell if I am the norm or a rarity among its chosen market. I suspect I am fairly typical among those looking for a single lens P&S because the typical smartphone camera such people are coming from has a 28mm equivalent lens. Ricoh started with 28mm in 1996, and stayed with it for many years, and has only recently expanded the range.

If Leica chooses to make a Q35 or even a Q50, good luck to them.

Your reasoning for a Q is totally solid, but telling that a 28mm with digital crop (marketing), will replace any need for another f/l is utterly .. especially when that person has many lenses, cameras and no Q.

 

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Your reasoning for a Q is totally solid, but telling that a 28mm with digital crop (marketing), will replace any need for another f/l is utterly .. especially when that person has many lenses, cameras and no Q.

 

I haven't seen that marketing pitch. It goes without saying that a crop will not replace a longer FL with the same pixel density, but it can certainly substitute with compromises, which is how I use it. A SL2-S with multiple lenses can substitute for a Q2 in my usage - but with compromises that I am not willing to accept. As it happens, my Q2 replaced a CL with several TL lenses. I lost something when I made the change, but, for what I wanted the Q2 for, I gained something that I valued more highly.

One day there will be a camera that doesn't require me to accept compromises........

[Olaf_ZG]

4 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

 

One day there will be a camera that doesn't require me to accept compromises........

Maybe. Maybe not.

I don’t expect a Q40/50 to be such camera, I just expect it to be a Q with a 40/50 lens.

Pentax/Ricoh saw it, may be Leica will one day.

But let be honest, digital crop is the same as digital zoom, and any camera/lens can do this, and if this is your thing, great, cool, but don’t try to convince the world that it’s a perfect or best solution (especially when one has lots of equipment). 28mm is not 50mm, yet digital crop is digital zoom, just called different, powered by marketing.

[jaapv]

56 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

You can’t leave it, can’t you. But ok, let’s assume you are right, 60mp and 28mm is enough.

still you didn’t explain me why you have a SL and zooms. Its all the same in the end.

Leica marketing really got you.

A bit hard approaching Lion in the wild with a 70 mm max camera…I only use it for wildlife and birds, or when it happens to be within my reach. 

[Le Chef]

I would argue it’s not powered by marketing in the pejorative sense, but by recognizing usage patterns and capitalizing on them.

[Patrick NL]

36 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean their view is shaped by marketing. Some Q owners are actually quite intelligent😉.

Looks like somebody is calling me... 😁

It is clear a cropped 28mm is not the same as a 50mm. That should not be the discussion I think. The question is if a cropped 28mm is good enough for you needs.

I like to be close to my subjects, so I love the 28mm. Would I shoot portraits like headshots with it. No. I would take mij Fujifilm X-T3 with a 56/1.2 or 90/2 or something like that. But I like making portraits with some context. Here the 28mm, cropped if needed, works fine. I do not think I'm tricked by the Leica marketing department. I'm too intelligent for that!

[jaapv]

Ok, Gentleladies and Gentlemen, once again by popular request - No trickery, nothing up my sleeves, nothing under my hat, watch my hands closely; just plain magic at the touch of my wand!

 

28 mm

 

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70 mm

 

 

28 mm cropped To 70 mm AOV  

[thegobi]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Ok, Gentleladies and Gentlemen, once again by popular request - No trickery, nothing up my sleeves, nothing under my hat, watch my hands closely; just plain magic at the touch of my wand!

 

28 mm

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

70 mm

 

 

28 mm cropped To 70 mm AOV  

Witchcraft I say!
Burn the witch! 

[thegobi]

Wait… are we up to a 70mm Q3 already?
By tomorrow it will be the Supertelephoto Birding Q4 because “400mm is my favourite focal length and want to take bird photos with a Q4”. 🤣

Edited December 27, 2023 by thegobi

[Einst_Stein]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

Ok, Gentleladies and Gentlemen, once again by popular request - No trickery, nothing up my sleeves, nothing under my hat, watch my hands closely; just plain magic at the touch of my wand!

 

28 mm

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

70 mm

 

 

28 mm cropped To 70 mm AOV  

This forum is not adequate to compare the image quality we are discussing. We need to see the full resolution.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[Simone_DF]

8 hours ago, Patrick NL said:

I like to be close to my subjects, so I love the 28mm. Would I shoot portraits like headshots with it. No. I would take mij Fujifilm X-T3 with a 56/1.2 or 90/2 or something like that. But I like making portraits with some context. Here the 28mm, cropped if needed, works fine. I do not think I'm tricked by the Leica marketing department. I'm too intelligent for that!

Yes, thank you. You are one of those with a Q plus another camera for longer focal lengths. Thing is, instead of taking a Fuji X-T3 with a 56 or 90mm, I would like to take a Q equipped with a 50mm lens. 

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

This forum is not adequate to compare the image quality we are discussing. We need to see the full resolution.

Why do you think that Leica made the  Q3 60 MP.? It is the only camera where these high pixel counts make any photographical sense. This example demonstrates  the principle, not the Q. How could I have taken a 70 mm lens shot with one ? 

The point is that some photographers claim that there is a vast difference between a  28 mm shot cropped to a longer focal length field of view and a shot with a native focal length. Which, as long as you don't change the position of camera and subject (and the distance a print is viewed at) , is completely false. As I said, any photography primer will tell you so. 
However, many photographers still talk about " a wideangle perspective or a tele compression".  Which is in reality shorthand for "I moved in close and used a wideangle to get the angle of view" or, "I was far away and used a telelens to get the exclusion of the surroundings that I needed."  Which means that they are acknowledging that it is the subject distance that creates the perspective they whilst  thinking that it was the lens. A classic case of the tail wagging the dog.

I am sure that Simone likes to use a longer focal length  for portraits because she does not like the effect of pressing a camera into people's faces. However, try taking a portrait with a 28 standing at a 50 mm distance and crop it down to 50 mm field of view. On the Q3 the only difference will be that DOF is one aperture value less shallow. It will look like it was taken with a Summicron 50.  Who needs 60 MP for a portrait anyway? You will be down to something like 30 where 10 MP is ample. 

TRY IT!! and put the prejudice aside.

There is a case for using multiple focal length lenses. They might draw differently, differ in rendering, contrast etc, or the photographer will feel comfortable getting it right in the camera. In that case (which is my case as well) a cropping camera is not for you. But that does not alter the idea behind the Q nor the basic geometrical principles of focal length and image projection.