Leica M11 or M12 with electronic only shutter

[3D-Kraft.com]

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The camera has not much influence on the "content" but I agree, that there may be some (quite rare) situations, where the 61 MP sensor delivers superior results (same with A7RV and A7CR compared to the 50MP stacked sensor of the A1). If you look at the whole pack (AF performance, IBIS, 8K video etc.), we talk about a - technically - totally different world. But let's keep on track with the shutter discussion.

[algrove]

Shutter discussion=ES only-not for me.

[Kiwimac]

10 hours ago, SrMi said:

I find my M11 images to trump my A1 images in content and technical quality.

Yes. But not at 120 fps!

[bilbrown]

On 10/30/2023 at 4:14 PM, williamj said:

Would you buy a Leica M or any digital Leica if it came only with an electronic shutter? Here I mean something like the one in the Nikon Z9, so something that can photograph working ceiling fans without bending them. 

Depends on the implementation of the shutter.

I am NO engineer, but it seems to me that a global shutter would be best and at the pricing of the M12 or M11-R or whatever it becomes I think Leica can afford to get a pallet of new sensors with instant read/write speeds that use the full sensor so there is no banding at night and no warping because of reading from the top.

This would make the camera usable and silent, but I would like it to at least MIMIC the shutter sound of the M10-P or even a M4 if you need it to. One of the reasons I got rid of my Mamiya 7ii was the leaf shutter making the camera have no audible sound and I never knew if I got the shot or not!

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 5/26/2024 at 1:03 PM, bilbrown said:

Depends on the implementation of the shutter.

I am NO engineer, but it seems to me that a global shutter would be best and at the pricing of the M12 or M11-R or whatever it becomes I think Leica can afford to get a pallet of new sensors with instant read/write speeds that use the full sensor so there is no banding at night and no warping because of reading from the top.

This would make the camera usable and silent, but I would like it to at least MIMIC the shutter sound of the M10-P or even a M4 if you need it to. One of the reasons I got rid of my Mamiya 7ii was the leaf shutter making the camera have no audible sound and I never knew if I got the shot or not!

And where would they get this sensor from? Sony, Nikon and Canon aren't even sharing their stacked sensors. I don't see ANY global shutter sensor that would be available to buy at any price.

*Maybe*, when Sony are done with the A1 sensor or they make an A1mk2, something like that will become available. But there's literally not one stacked or global sensor available for Leica to buy right now.

Gordon

[harmen]

The functionality and the technology can be assessed separately 

• An EVF I can be agnostic about, but it has to show me what there is outside the frame lines and the focus has to be through overlapping images.  I nearly always focus manually on the Q2M and it is just not as convenient and fast as with the M.  I do like that I can see in black and white, however.
• Ideally I dial in the aperture and have a shutter speed that is sufficient to stop motion (in most cases).  Then I can forget about the ISO, actual shutter speed, and how the shutter functions.  There should be a nice sound though, so I know I took a shot.
• Oh, yes, the body should stay the same on the outside: size, where the shutter button is, etc.

The M11 currently gets me closest to these functional wishes.  The biggest gap is probably not being able to switch the (optical) viewfinder to black and white 😉, but I would not give up on the great focusing that only the optical solution currently offers.   A global shutter, if available, sounds like it could help somewhat on the ‘I can shoot any aperture at any time of day’ wish.  Sure, why not.

Edited May 31, 2024 by harmen

[SNJ Ops]

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2 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

And where would they get this sensor from? Sony, Nikon and Canon aren't even sharing their stacked sensors. I don't see ANY global shutter sensor that would be available to buy at any price.

*Maybe*, when Sony are done with the A1 sensor or they make an A1mk2, something like that will become available. But there's literally not one stacked or global sensor available for Leica to buy right now.

Gordon

Sony Semiconductor is the arm of Sony Group that manufactures and sells sensors to customers not Sony Imaging which is the part that makes and sells cameras and lenses and they don’t decide which sensors others get to use their cameras.

Sony Semiconductor have sensors that can be bought off the shelf and tweaked by the customer or the customer can design their own sensor and have it manufactured to spec which according to reports is what Nikon do.

I suspect in Leica’s case the sensor found in the M11/M11-P is a variant of the one found in the Sony A7RV but with significant changes. Sony also designs and makes Monochrome only sensors.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

2 hours ago, SNJ Ops said:

Sony Semiconductor is the arm of Sony Group that manufactures and sells sensors to customers not Sony Imaging which is the part that makes and sells cameras and lenses and they don’t decide which sensors others get to use their cameras.

Sony Semiconductor have sensors that can be bought off the shelf and tweaked by the customer or the customer can design their own sensor and have it manufactured to spec which according to reports is what Nikon do.

I suspect in Leica’s case the sensor found in the M11/M11-P is a variant of the one found in the Sony A7RV but with significant changes. Sony also designs and makes Monochrome only sensors.

Of course the camera manufacturers have exclusivity, for a period of time. Sony semiconductor will sign an exclusivity agreement with various makers if they can, for the right price. A period of exclusivity is normal in the tech space, as I'm sure you're aware of. Nikon has Sony SC manufacture sensors they assist in designing. Sony Camera will also require exclusivity for some sensors. Canon have their own fabs. Right now none are sharing.

The 61MP sensor you cite likely came off exclusivity. It did start 5 years ago in the A7R4, after all. Possibly the 50MP stacked sensor from the A1 might become available in the future but it's not available now. It'll be more interesting to see if Sony SC allow Panasonic to have it because the S1RII is a far closer competitor to the A7R5 than an SL3. Nikon and Canon don't share their sensors, or better said, they never have, ever. Kodak aren't making camera sesnors anymore and Towerjazz, well I have no idea what they've done since the M(240). You'll note that not even Sony Imaging is not getting use of the 40MP chip that Fuji has made by Sony SC. I would put a wager on the A1 sensor being a Sony Camera exclusive, for now.

Mind you is doesn't appear Leica has much interest in the speed performance market. Evetything they do suggests they're firmly chasing the smallest IQ gains over speed. That'll annoy some but it is what it is, for now at least.

I should say that I'm all for a fast readout sensor in an M and SL variant. I'm not against it at all. I would LOVE to have the A1 sensor in a SL3-S. Just that not a single one of the stacked sensors has yet appeared outside it's home brand and so I don't think Leica has access, yet. But that may change. Mind you I can imagine the M forums going ape shit (BOTH IN AVERY GOOD AND VERRRY BAD WAY) over a 5 year old stacked sensor in an M12. You can't please anyone in Leica land. Don't take my posts as being againsy it. I'm not. Just trying to be realistic about it happening soon.

Gordon

[hdmesa]

On 5/19/2024 at 5:44 PM, IkarusJohn said:

Um, an M11-D would have no LCD by definition …

The whole metering options off the sensor idea with the M11 still seems odd to me.  It really only gives n advantage to me if you use the EVF, and you can see what’s being metered, move the spot around or see what’s being multi-zoned.  I know you can leave it centre-weighted, and convince yourself it’s not different or better than off the shutter, but that seems pointless to me.

Face it, leaving metering to the camera is always going to be an averaging game.  If you really want to get absolutely precise metering, you need to venture down the zone rabbit hole.  Necessary for Ansel Adams, but then he was using large format film.

I much prefer the basic averaged, but consistent metering off the shutter when using the OVF and the more detailed options with the EVF when using my M10-D, but then I tend not to use those either (save spot metering where I can chose the spot, and I’m in manual exposure anyway).  

I seem to be a luddite on this issue.  

I prefer to set the M11M off-sensor metering to center-weighted. I feel like it's a more traditional experience and calculates a better exposure to my subject than multi-field metering.

 

On 5/20/2024 at 10:44 AM, Crem said:

You aren't alone. I much prefer M10 metering off the shutter curtain when using the OVF. It's predictable and works well. It does require one to think a bit so I assume that's why Leica defaults the M11 to multi field mode. 

The metering off the sensor in center-weighted metering mode is 10/10 times more accurate for me than the shutter curtain metering. You're just used to the old meter's quirks and have adjusted accordingly. However, that experience sometimes fails when trying to shoot a wide aperture lens with heavy vignetting wide open in high contrast light. The darker corners very easily fool the shutter blade meter, giving erratic readings that jump around with the slightest camera movement. The shutter blade metering was maddening on the M10M with the 28 Lux at f/1.4, so much so that I would have to resort to using LV on the rear LCD. 

 

[Crem]

7 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I prefer to set the M11M off-sensor metering to center-weighted. I feel like it's a more traditional experience and calculates a better exposure to my subject than multi-field metering.

 

The metering off the sensor in center-weighted metering mode is 10/10 times more accurate for me than the shutter curtain metering. You're just used to the old meter's quirks and have adjusted accordingly. However, that experience sometimes fails when trying to shoot a wide aperture lens with heavy vignetting wide open in high contrast light. The darker corners very easily fool the shutter blade meter, giving erratic readings that jump around with the slightest camera movement. The shutter blade metering was maddening on the M10M with the 28 Lux at f/1.4, so much so that I would have to resort to using LV on the rear LCD. 

 

I agree on setting the M11 to center weighted. I did that back when I had one and preferred it to multi field.

Did they ever fix the bug where some frames would randomly overexpose by multiple stops? On mine I’d end up with random blown out frames (multi field, aperture priority). It didn’t happen often, but was very annoying. I never had that happen on my M10 bodies, Sonys, etc.

[hdmesa]

10 hours ago, Crem said:

I agree on setting the M11 to center weighted. I did that back when I had one and preferred it to multi field.

Did they ever fix the bug where some frames would randomly overexpose by multiple stops? On mine I’d end up with random blown out frames (multi field, aperture priority). It didn’t happen often, but was very annoying. I never had that happen on my M10 bodies, Sonys, etc.

I never had that issue, but I thought I remember reading it was resolved.

[marchyman]

15 hours ago, Crem said:

It didn’t happen often, but was very annoying. I never had that happen on my M10 bodies, Sonys, etc.

There is a report of that issue just posted to the forum from a new user on the latest software.  I have not seen that issue in quite a while.  I don't know if that is because I changed my metering mode to highlight weighted or updated firmware or coincidence.  When it did occur a dim memory says it was usually on subsequent shots in a sequence of shots each taken with a press of the shutter, not using any continuous mode.   I was never sure if maybe I kept the shutter button half pressed, thus locking in the exposure while moving the camera such that lighting conditions had changed.

[Crem]

9 hours ago, marchyman said:

There is a report of that issue just posted to the forum from a new user on the latest software.  I have not seen that issue in quite a while.  I don't know if that is because I changed my metering mode to highlight weighted or updated firmware or coincidence.  When it did occur a dim memory says it was usually on subsequent shots in a sequence of shots each taken with a press of the shutter, not using any continuous mode.   I was never sure if maybe I kept the shutter button half pressed, thus locking in the exposure while moving the camera such that lighting conditions had changed.

I don't have the M11 anymore to test, but I do think it used to happen to me when rapid firing shots in single shot mode (aperture priority, I think multi field). In my case I'm very confident the lighting conditions didn't change enough to matter. The blown out images were multiple stops overexposed and basically white. For now I'm sticking with my M10 line because of this any all the other problems I had.

Reading through this thread has made me realize how much I'd love to see a M12 with something like the Sony A9iii sensor. 24MP, global shutter, get the base ISO down a bit (like the M11 did vs the A7R4). All of that plus rock solid firmware would make for an amazing M12. I'm guessing there is little to no chance Leica is interested in going back to 24MP though.

[Derbyshire Man]

11 hours ago, marchyman said:

There is a report of that issue just posted to the forum from a new user on the latest software.  I have not seen that issue in quite a while.  I don't know if that is because I changed my metering mode to highlight weighted or updated firmware or coincidence.  When it did occur a dim memory says it was usually on subsequent shots in a sequence of shots each taken with a press of the shutter, not using any continuous mode.   I was never sure if maybe I kept the shutter button half pressed, thus locking in the exposure while moving the camera such that lighting conditions had changed.

I still get it; single shot, highlight priority, white out. M11P.

I love the camera(s), I've got an M11P and M11M. With ongoing crashes/refusal to start/over exposure there's a strong whiff of beta/pre-production model 2 years after release. It's not acceptable but Leica recognise this too.

Would I go back to 24mp. Not ideally. In fact I think I'd like the current M11 to have a meter from shutter curtain mode option!

For me, a critical issue is the disconnect between shutter button and taking a shot and the current setup up continuous mode being able to take 5 shots per second but single only a max of 2.5, along with run on when in continuous mode is an issue. Hard to know whether a move to a global shutter would make that better or worse.

Just like driving, I want to have the most connected feel possible to steering, brakes, gears and accelerator. Or in this case aperture, shutter speed, focus and shutter button/action. Surely that's the whole point of an M?

[crons]

On 10/31/2023 at 6:14 AM, williamj said:

Would you buy a Leica M or any digital Leica if it came only with an electronic shutter? Here I mean something like the one in the Nikon Z9, so something that can photograph working ceiling fans without bending them. 

No. But I guess maybe it won't matter for later generations of Leica M if it becomes more of a digital mirroless camera than a classic rangefinder feel. 

One of the most satisfying sensations when shooting a Leica M, other than the feel of the advance lever on film, is the sound and feel of the shutter when it goes off. It is really like Bresson used to describe it. You see the target you frame it an BANG! You shoot. 

It would totally kill the experience. Like putting numbing cream all over your privates and then a condom on top of that before having sex.