Pre-Production Summitar? Dated 1938 EARLY Serial 424*** Possible Summar?

[Matt26]

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I have recently acquired a lovely example of a Summitar lens. Would just like to know a little bit about it as I see the serial number dates it to 1938 (when the Summar was still in production). From my understanding the Summitar wasn’t in production until 1939. I have searched the internet and unable to find one with an early serial, such as this. It also comes with an interesting (handmade/prototype?) lens hood that isn’t stamped. My main concern is the aperture runs to f12.5 (as do the early Summitar models) but the focus range runs to f16 which suggests it may have been altered/fixed at some stage of its life? …Focus is in meters. …Any information on this lens would be both interesting and valuable. Many thanks!

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Edited October 30, 2023 by Matt26

[Anbaric]

Erwin Puts places the first Summitar batch in 1938, though with later serial numbers than yours (which is from a range he assigns to a Summar batch):

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/images/3/3e/Leica-puts-pocket-book.pdf

None of the public lists are thought to be 100% correct, though. You could ask info@leica-camera.com to take a look at their records for this serial number. They responded quite quickly when I last queried a number of similar vintage.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Anbaric

[UliWer]

According to Thiele No. 424813 belongs to a batch of 7000 Summars (418.001 - 425.000). For the Summitar he gives 487001 as the first number.

Though you never can be sure whether these lists are right and odd examples outside the number sequences are really a regularity for Leica items.

P.S. You could measure the diameter of the front lens: the Summar‘s is approx 26mm, the Summitar’s approx. 34mm. 

f/16 on the DOF scale is an oddity, my Summitar (No. 523232) has f/12.5 as smallest aperture and on the DOF scale. 

So it would be interesting to know what the Leica archives tell about your lens. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by UliWer

[Anbaric]

Our Wiki mentions another early Summitar (419845) from that same 'Summar' batch:

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Summitar_f%3D_5_cm_1:2

Edited October 30, 2023 by Anbaric

[Matt26]

Thank you both very much for the comments. I had stumbled across the Summitar with serial: 419845 listed on Wiki mentions. This is the only one I can find in this serial number batch (Summar batch). 

Regarding the measurement of the front of the lens it measures approx 40mm in total diameter. The front glass element being approx 34/35mm, so it is Summitar size.

I have contacted info@leica-camera.com as you mentioned. Looking forward to seeing what they say.

...Also, just noticed the inscribed 'Gemany' on the Side of the lens is little wonky (see attached image).

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[UliWer]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Matt26:

...Also, just noticed the inscribed 'Gemany' on the Side of the lens is little wonky (see attached image).

Yes, usually there is no "Germany" engraved on the lens and the style doesn't resemble the typical style of engravings by Leitz.

The DOF scale is engraved with the numbers for f-stops in the modern post-war sequel (2-4-5.6 etc.) while the ring for setting f-stops follows the old style(2-2,2-3,2-4,5 etc). So it looks as if two compounds from different times were put together. This may have been done by a third party repair shop, the bad engraving for "Germany" hints at this possibility. Though there are other examples of original Leitz lenses which were made from different parts: there is a batch of 90mm Summicrons from the early sixties which have f/16 as smallest f-stop of the lens element, but the DOF-scale is engraved with f/22.  Sometimes the factory had spare parts which were not used in original production and they used them up later. One might guess that shortly after the war this practice wasn't unusual.  

 

[Anbaric]

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I have a late Summitar engraved 'Germany', but not in that style. I don't know how they decided whether to engrave this or not. I have some gear from the 30s that is engraved this way and some that isn't. We might assume it was used on items intended for export, but my 1939 IIIb, which the records say was exported to London, does not have it. The policy may have changed over time (obviously today they always do it) - maybe this would also be consistent with a lens put together later from whatever parts were available at the factory, as suggested above. Or maybe they were at the prototype stage and hadn't decided on the minimum aperture specification. Or maybe a third party has combined parts from different lenses. The hood is also interesting - presumably it has no engravings, but does it have tabs designed to clip on to this lens? The proper hood for the Summitar is quite a contraption, so this could be anything from an earlier, simpler prototype to a third party hood bought by someone who didn't like the 'barn door' gadget, or even a mismatched hood.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Anbaric

[Giuliobigazzi]

The first Summitars had a slightly different front ring, more ‘vertical’ than normal, which makes me think these would have been a later production, perhaps using unused Summar serials 

[sandro]

Matt, could you perhaps show a photo of the DOF scale and focus scale? I am curious to know if there is the R mark indicating the position to focus with infrared film.

The hood may also be a third party product, when nothing on it indicates a Leitz origin. I bought a Summar sevreal years ago with a very nice perfectly fitting hood, which doesn't have andy engraving indicating that it is a Leitz product.

Lex