Advice for getting the most out of my M10M?

[JoshuaR]

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A few months ago, I bought an M10M to go with my M10 and M6. I bought it partly because I've really enjoyed shooting black and white film over the past few years, and partly because my wife and I were expecting our second child (who has now arrived), and I thought the low-light capabilities of the camera might come in handy. I've used it with a range of lenses, but mostly with my 50mm Summicron v5, almost always without filters (although I do own yellow filters). I'd say that I make about forty percent of my pictures in black and white.

After many, many frames, I'm still coming to grips with the M10M and what it offers. It's been a mixed bag for me. I've taken some photos that I know will be long-term favorites, but have struggled with other aspects of the camera. To name a few things:

• I'm a hobbyist who basically takes pictures of my family and my travels as a journalist. I'm not undertaking black-and-white-only photo projects—just taking pictures of life as it unfolds. I'm finding that owning a Monochrom has made my camera choices more complex. Life was simpler when all I had to decide was "film or digital?" Because I'm basically taking candid photographs of people, I haven't found that a "black and white mindset" has resulted from using the M10M.
• I'm still not sure what I think about the look of the files. I love black and white film, and have made many good exposures using HP5 and Tri-X in both 35mm and 120 format in recent years. But the perfect, nearly grainless look of the M10M files doesn't always sit right with me, aesthetically. I think I might prefer the grit and grain of black and white film. Oddly, it seems like I can get closer to that while converting my M10 files to black and white.
• I thought I'd get a lot of value out of extreme low-light shooting. But I've found that, for the most part, when there's not enough light, the light also isn't good. The M10M allows me to obtain more depth of field when the light is low. But I was doing well-enough shooting my M10 with fast lenses. So it's not entirely clear to me that I'm benefitting in low light.
• I have an overall sense that I'm not being creative enough with the camera or during post-processing. When I look at what Allan Schaller does, for example, I see that he is learning much more heavily into extreme contrast and the recovery of shadow detail. I'm essentially using the M10M for documentary photography. Do I really need an M10M sensor for that?

These are my reservations . . . . and yet every so often the camera delivers an image that I know I couldn't have made with my M10 or M6 (or Pentax 67) and I'm glad I own it.

People often say that there's a real learning curve with the Monochrom cameras, even for those who are proficient in the M system, and I suppose I'm finding that to be true. I wonder if any of you have some perspectives or advice to share. The M10M was a big investment for me, and my intention is to continue shooting it for at least six months before coming to a firm conclusion about whether it makes sense for me. So I'm eager for any advice that might help me get the most out of the camera. Thank you for any insights or suggestions you have!

Below, some M10M photos I've been happy with (but which I feel could be better?):

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Walking to the creek at night / 28 Elmarit ASPH

Walking in the rain / 35 Cron v3

Day 2 / 50 Cron v5

Week 2 / 50 Cron v5

Story time / 24 Elmar-M

Edited October 26, 2023 by JoshuaRothman

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[pcgarner]

These are spectacular examples of using monochrome. Other than cropping issues (all minor), these are marvelous. Toss out that M6 and M10.  :-)

[Marc Andrew Williams]

Yes, in my opinion, working with a monochrome camera results in a B&W mindset.

For me it was a natural progression from shooting with a range of M film cameras from a M4 through a M6, and on to a MP and the brace of M7s I used to shoot weddings, because I rarely used color film in those cameras.

B&W is an extension of the Leica M's ability to remove all distractions from the focus on content ... what the image is about over what it looks like. A rangefinder viewfinder doesn't show what a focal length will capture: no Wide-Angle or Telephoto effect, and a monochrome further removes the distraction of color from the equation.   

So, I was elated when Leica introduced the first M Monochrom ... a camera I still use. I refuse to give it up until either I or the camera gives up the ghost. Why? Because it looks like film more than other. A controversial subject to be sure, but not for me. The CCD Monochrome sensor rules! 

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[rpsawin]

I would advise you to go out with just that camera and one lens and practice. Go home, review your images and look at the work of other B&W photographers. This has worked for me over the years and I have been shooting film (and making lots of mistakes) since the 1970's. Good luck and best wishes for you.

[Jeff S]

If you’re not exclusively using a Monochrom for an extended period, it’s unlikely that you’ll fully experience a B&W mindset.  
 

And if you’re not putting in the time to nail your Monochrom shooting and processing workflow, then you shouldn’t expect optimal results.  But the same can be said for color conversions; never plug and play.

But, for me, a waste of time without making prints..  and experiencing different papers and renderings …but that’s another discussion.

Jeff

[Olaf_ZG]

I have the m10m for almost a year now, and am still fine tuning my way of processing. With low light, it certainly delivers better than a m10 or m6. 
 

In your case I would put the m10 in the drawer, use the m6 if color is a must and really learn the m10m.

[HugoSC]

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I recently came back to a Monochrom M with the purchase of an M10M.  When the Pandemic started I ended up selling my beloved M9M due to the lack of an EVF to help with my failing eyesight. I took a side route with a Fuji Gfx 50R because it reminded me of using my M9M but now I could focus accurately and even Autofocus if I felt I needed it.  I have now sold off all my Fuji gear and reinvesting my time 100% with my "new to me M10M".  
 

Josh, and others in a similar predicament, I share the above to reinforce some of the advice already given. The M Monochrom, regardless of model, requires a dedicated effort to extract its full capabilities.  I read this many times in this forum but now have my own first hand experience.  Specifically, going back and forth between color images and B&W didnt allow me to create a "B&W" mindset and really hone in and optimize my use of the Monochrom.  Btw, I previously shot a Mamiya 6Mf, Hasselblad 501c, 4x5 and 4x10 B&W film.  So, its not a lack of B&W experience per say. Its more of a mindset which, for me, ultimately creates "an eye for B&W using the Monochrom" versus just "shooting B&W images. Call me crazy but the more I concentrate on using "only my M10M" the more It becomes almost second nature and, with that, the more I create images that please me and reinforce why I went this route.  
 

Give it some time and try to concentrate on B&W only shooting (if you can) and I believe you will soon experience the rewards that this wonderful image maker yields.  As for the "look" of the images thats another topic and I've gone on long enough but I will quickly share that I kept many of the vintage lenses I used on my M9M and I find that most are wonderful on the M10M and give a bit of a different look than the newer ASPH versions do.

 

Lastly, good luck and Congratulations to you and your spouse on that beautiful (and photogenic) baby.

 

Hugo

Edited October 28, 2023 by HugoSC

[newtoleica]

The M10 sensor does very good B&W conversions using silver effects pro. You can also select films with a particular colour response eg Tri-X, which you can’t so easily do with a Monochrom sensor. For me the M9M was a huge step up from the M9 sensor which didn’t in my view support B&W very well, but the M10M… not so much. 
I love the idea of a Monochrom M, but I think it’s marginal utility over an m10-P alone is not so great and might not be justifiable. I would need to sell my M7 to add that and I don’t want to lose the ability to shoot B&W film even if currently I’m not really finding the time to do it on account of work. 

[Luke_Miller]

I process my MM and M246 files very differently than those from me M240.  The ability to resolve finer detail and subtle tonal variation allows development I can't get from color conversions.  I learned that with Silver Efex Pro that Leica bundled with the MM. The other thing I learned it that it takes a good monitor to process Monochrom images to best effect.  Those subtle tone variation can't always be seen on less capable monitors.  I like the shots the OP posted, but I would process them differently.  More like those of Marc Andrew Williams in his post.  I find the use of clarity and structure tools bring out what my Monochrom files offer that my color conversions from Bayer Array cameras do not.  

I don't think I have a B&W "eye" but use my Monochroms on subjects they capture best.  So they are not "walk around" cameras, but rather dedicated to a specific shoot. I really like them for candid portraiture since they ensure the viewer of the image is drawn to the subject's eyes, rather than a colorful garment or background object.  For younger subjects the added detail makes for a more interesting shot but does "mature" subjects no favors.  

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Edited October 28, 2023 by Luke_Miller

[ramarren]

B&W mindset? I don't know what that is. I just see B&W as photography; color photography is a plus-add.

For me, just like with B&W film, proper filtration is key. The M10M produces wonderful images with nothing added, but to my eye the sensor's spectral response curve begs for filtration, just like most B&W film does. It's response curve is a little flat otherwise. Try a Green filter or an Orange filter ... The green gives a larger range of subtly separated tones on most scenes, the orange produces a more contrasty range of tones. Red, Yellow, Blue filters each push the grayscale tonal spectrum in interesting ways. 

Me? I normally stick a green filter onto whatever my lens du jour might be (most commonly a 50 or 35) and forget about it, go walking and looking for various types of scenes. I'm not so frequently in a people mood, but it does well with that. Concentrate on what you want to photograph and forget that you're shooting with a B&W camera. With time and lots of exposures, you'll find that "B&W mindset" is simply seeing photographs. 

G

[Jeff S]

B&W mindset?  Pretty simple concept for me; simply not being distracted by looking for, or paying attention to, potential color pics. Just like when I worked with B&W film, starting 50 years ago.  Color pics vs B&W pics involve different ways of seeing and thinking, for me. I have found relatively few photographers over the years who excel at both.

Different strokes for different folks.

Jeff

[Ken Abrahams]

Love your M10M images above, especially "Day 2 50 Cron subject sitting in chair with new born. I continue to find a great deal of satisfaction (excitement) when shooting the M10M. Admittedly the files can seem dark at times however the detail in the files is awesome . It's a matter of moving way from what you know as a good black and white image and maintaining smooth tonal range without going too far from the original contrasts of the DNG. Blacks can go blacker and whites whiter, the mid grey areas or lack of contrast in mid tones seems to be an issue with many images I see on this forum. The idea is to enjoy ones photography and enjoy the camera somehow without too many expectations. I guess you have set a period of six months to ascertain your final conclusions about the M10M. I think it took about a year of using the M9M for me and then the same but less for the M10M. A black and white mindset in my view is more about assessing and aligning post production with a certain style of image making which could follow a technical avenue and or a philosophical view point that one is expressing. So when you go out shooting you see things that will render a certain way in post production. (like the window light in your images above) Pre visualisation or developing a "preface" for the conclusion of your images is the key. The concept is different for everyone whether you are shooting family, everyday things or landscapes or documentary work. The first thing one does is look for the light that you know the M10M and you loves to explore.     

[sometimesmaybe]

On 10/27/2023 at 1:02 AM, JoshuaRothman said:

I have an overall sense that I'm not being creative enough with the camera or during post-processing. When I look at what Allan Schaller does, for example, I see that he is learning much more heavily into extreme contrast and the recovery of shadow detail. I'm essentially using the M10M for documentary photography. Do I really need an M10M sensor for that?

the images you have shared are absolutely beautify, because they tell a wonderful story. it's the connection with the viewer that makes a great image (as opposed to having just a pretty image). you have absolutely nailed the storytelling!

the DNG monchrom files are very flat which is great for editing, but it doesn't give very punchy results by default. when editing i like to set my black and white points, add a touch of contrast and shadow. my attempt at channeling schaller

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On 10/27/2023 at 1:02 AM, JoshuaRothman said:

I thought I'd get a lot of value out of extreme low-light shooting. But I've found that, for the most part, when there's not enough light, the light also isn't good. The M10M allows me to obtain more depth of field when the light is low. But I was doing well-enough shooting my M10 with fast lenses. So it's not entirely clear to me that I'm benefitting in low light.

i only have the m246, but i find its low light abilities to be amazing. by this i mean, i only need to find a little bit of good light and i can expose my subject properly i.e. i dont need the light source to be at ambient levels. i shot this portrait in very dark conditions, but i only needed 40w LED to light the subject (we were hiding from the torrential rain at the time)

 

 

 

 

[ramarren]

Lovely portraits!

G

[JoshuaR]

Everyone, many thanks for your advice and insights—it's genuinely helpful.

I'm going to make more of an effort with filters and also with post-processing. And I'm going to spend more time looking at black and white photography and thinking about what I want my images to look like. 

I think I'm going to give myself more than six months with the M10M. Maybe I'll keep on with it into late 2024 and see where I get.

And I'm going to work more to make my photographs more contrasty and detailed. It's helpful to remember that it's my job to experiment and try out different looks.

[Likaleica]

On 10/26/2023 at 8:02 AM, JoshuaRothman said:

 

 Oddly, it seems like I can get closer to that while converting my M10 files to black and white.

Possibly because of the noise on the M10 at higher ISOs, since you are talking about photographing in dim light.  Converted to B&W it can resemble film grain.

Your photographs are absolutely incredible.  So warm and personal.  

In prints, I cannot tell the difference between a file from a M9M, a M10M or a M10.  Probably couldn't distinguish most modern cameras.  I think it kind of shows up when pixel peeping or when assessing the limits, like Sean Reid level testing, which I do not do.  To me it matters more which camera feels natural in the hand and is the least distracting.  I like it when I'm not sure if I just made a photograph or not.  

However, for truly low light situations, the M10M is clearly superior to the M9M for shadow detail.  I never used the M246, so I can't comment on that.

[Anakronox]

Definitely shoot with color filters if you want more contrast in the raws.  I find that without a yellow or orange filter, the files come out supremely flat and muddy.  Even with that I still push my contrast around in post to crush blacks and get just short of blowing critical highlights.  I couldn’t care less about specular highlights and let them clip.  But that’s my taste and yours may be different.  To keep things from getting too harsh though I’ll often shoot with a low strength Black Pro Mist.

[Ken Abrahams]

I stopped using filters on the M10M as there is ample enough contrast so adding orange or red filters will be even more so. I use the filters on the M9M however, because this camera produces lighter/grey raw files. Now that summer is here in the southern hemisphere I will dust off the ND filters so that the Monochrom cameras can shoot at f2 or f1.4 in the bright light. This is one thing the M11M can easily manage with its faster electronic shutter for wide open shooters. I am still blown away by the M9M files and have to say that I prefer working with them compared to the M10M files. I haven't used the M11M so I don't know where the starting point would be for their files.  

The other day I was in a friends studio shooting portraits of a man and his motor bike. Whilst my friend was bashing around with studio flash lighting I was using the modelling lights only, at 1600 iso with a 90 APO M Summicron lens.The results were amazing. I would like to say the below image is a composite however I used AI Generate function to get the traffic in the background. The image without AI Generate was posted in the "Show us your portraits page" with its black background.  

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Edited November 4, 2023 by Ken Abrahams

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[Photojournoguy]

Sounds like you are well on your way with everyone’s advice to spend more time exploring with the camera in a dedicated fashion, so curious where you net out.

Your story speaks to me as I have only an M10M and capture family documentary (my own) exclusively. And I’m a huge Alan Schaller fan. I’m dedicating myself to BW only because my conversions prior for all my keepers ended up as BW for the vast majority of them, so leaned into what speaks to me as I only have myself vs clients to satisfy. And if I take on any paid documentary work, it’ll be because they want what I enjoy capturing.

 My natural way of seeing leans into graphical, shapes, sometimes contrasty light vs shadow play. It so happens that what I enjoy capturing is accentuated by BW files.

I have accepted and made peace (with monochrome serving as my only tool) with having to give up some images. By that I mean a color sensor 100% allows you to keep all images you WANT to keep as the only two options are color or BW files. With a BW only solution, there are some scenarios that simply don’t result well in BW and I refrain from either shooting or keeping. I accept that knowing there are gazillions of other milliseconds to capture and I don’t need every single one. Especially as I don’t need to keep outside pressures in mind like with paid work. But this has allowed me to be more purposeful in exactly WHAT and WHY I find interesting enough to shoot and allows me to identify and pursue ‘my style.’

The depth and tonality of M10M files is incredible and always keeps me wanting more of it every time I edit images. And can always add grain in post if the original files are too smooth. I’ve found the grain in high ISO files to be quite attractive and film like. And this absolutely DOES see in the dark!

Any color pics I take are with phones and have gazillions of those as well that I share with family/put in frames around the house.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Photojournoguy

[JimP]

I discovered I had the b&w mindset when I was driving down the road and visualized everything in b&w. The only way I got there was using the monochrom as my primary camera and making lots of b&w prints.