Pressure plate issues with new film Ms resolved?

[250swb]

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1 hour ago, XOONS said:

Please calm down.

When you've cooled down a bit, we can talk further about how much you think Leica customers have to suffer before they are allowed to stand up forcefully for their rights as customers.

 

Stand up forcefully? Wow. But so far it essentially boils down to you consumer champions demanding a new camera on the spot even if it means taking a camera somebody else has ordered (unless you imagine dealers have a stockroom full?), or expecting to be put to the front of the service line. That is not consumer rights, it's the cry of 'I wanna..' that a child makes when some other kid has an ice cream.

[Jewl]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Jdjdjdi:

I went through 2 brand new MPs in 2021 before I have up…I guess my experience was a dream and I’m naive. 
 

Leica knew how to make cameras in 2002…not so much now. Ignoring the consistent problems they have with film cameras and QC is pretty silly 

I agree with this. Meanwhile, only the price is still consistent (and increasing) but the overall quality of the cameras is not matching with it! My Leica journey started in 2015 with 4/5 cameras in total (my Q and M6 got completely replaced) and each of them needed to go to Wetzlar at least once if not more times! Which I haven't experienced with any cheap(er) camera manufacturer in my whole life before.

[XOONS]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb 250swb:

That is not consumer rights, it's the cry of 'I wanna..' that a child makes when some other kid has an ice cream.

You might also cry if you had to wait six months for an ice cream you already paid for.

 

[_Alex_]

Gents, I'm sorry I asked.

[logan2z]

9 hours ago, 250swb said:

An inflated sense of your own importance? 

Steve, we know you love to stir the pot and we love you for it, but buying a nearly $6000 film camera and expecting it to either work out of the box or be repaired quickly if it doesn't isn't what I'd call having an inflated sense of self importance.  It's called reasonable expectation. 

It's great that you've had an MP that has worked flawlessly for 20+ years (my M-A has also worked perfectly since I bought it in 2017), but I think your tune might change if you bought a camera that was broken out of the box and were expected to wait 6+ months for a repair.  Either that or you're the most patient and understanding person on the planet and, if so, you're a better person than I am.

Edited October 9, 2023 by logan2z

[Pyrogallol]

If a new film camera scratches film straight out of the box and its not just one camera but several reported than the product should be recalled and taken off sale until the problem has been fixed, especially a top quality/price item.

[250swb]

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5 hours ago, logan2z said:

Steve, we know you love to stir the pot and we love you for it, but buying a nearly $6000 film camera and expecting it to either work out of the box or be repaired quickly if it doesn't isn't what I'd call having an inflated sense of self importance.  It's called reasonable expectation. 
 

And my response is that if it costs $6000 to build and make a profit from that should in no way be a marker for ultimate reliability. That is the cost to make it, it isn't a premium buyer guarantee. And this is the problem, people whining imagine that the cost isn't the cost to build the camera, but it's the cost to get into the Gold Star Leica Club. They buy a camera for $6000 so at that price they think it's impressively expensive, enough to brag about, and imagine they deserve the world for it. But it's not expensive for the reasons they think, for bragging rights, for status, or for photographing the damned thing posed next to a cappuccino. It's expensive because it cost a lot to build. 

I suggested some perspective but the whining and butt hurt continues, so let's ramp it up to a level that Leica doesn't even come close to in either price or dissatisfaction. Only 57% of Ferrari owners are happy with their cars. And while that unhappy 43% far exceeds dissatisfaction with Leica the causes are probably very similar, 'I paid a lot so my dream is ruined', 'I paid a lot and now feel embarrassed', and 'Ferrari (Leica) hasn't got a car to replace mine (even though I'd be getting a similar car)'. There is an old and famous anecdote about Enzo Ferrari from the 1960's when an American customer managed to collar him and complain about his new Ferrari rusting. To which Enzo Ferrari responded that he 'sells the customer a superb engine and drivetrain and gives the body for free, so why are you complaining?' I think there are some butt hurt Leica customers who've bought a Leica for reasons that go beyond it being a camera, and then on the rare occasions something goes wrong they inflate their sense of outrage. And before somebody suggests otherwise I've already said it's sad and upsetting when things do go wrong, it shouldn't' happen, but shit does happen.

 

[69xchange]

2 hours ago, 250swb said:

And my response is that if it costs $6000 to build and make a profit from that should in no way be a marker for ultimate reliability. That is the cost to make it, it isn't a premium buyer guarantee. And this is the problem, people whining imagine that the cost isn't the cost to build the camera, but it's the cost to get into the Gold Star Leica Club. They buy a camera for $6000 so at that price they think it's impressively expensive, enough to brag about, and imagine they deserve the world for it. But it's not expensive for the reasons they think, for bragging rights, for status, or for photographing the damned thing posed next to a cappuccino. It's expensive because it cost a lot to build. 

I suggested some perspective but the whining and butt hurt continues, so let's ramp it up to a level that Leica doesn't even come close to in either price or dissatisfaction. Only 57% of Ferrari owners are happy with their cars. And while that unhappy 43% far exceeds dissatisfaction with Leica the causes are probably very similar, 'I paid a lot so my dream is ruined', 'I paid a lot and now feel embarrassed', and 'Ferrari (Leica) hasn't got a car to replace mine (even though I'd be getting a similar car)'. There is an old and famous anecdote about Enzo Ferrari from the 1960's when an American customer managed to collar him and complain about his new Ferrari rusting. To which Enzo Ferrari responded that he 'sells the customer a superb engine and drivetrain and gives the body for free, so why are you complaining?' I think there are some butt hurt Leica customers who've bought a Leica for reasons that go beyond it being a camera, and then on the rare occasions something goes wrong they inflate their sense of outrage. And before somebody suggests otherwise I've already said it's sad and upsetting when things do go wrong, it shouldn't' happen, but shit does happen.

 

Yes, I agree that shit does happen, since it’s hand assembled, but for me it’s the fact that they signed the “quality card” saying it was “meticulously examined “. But some how my brand-new MP with a faulty light meter and my brand-new  M-A with a faulty slow speed escapement both passed their “quality standards” (things that should have been tested and examined). 

So it is the their BS that annoys me rather than the rate of their defective products. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by 69xchange

[Borna]

12 hours ago, Pyrogallol said:

If a new film camera scratches film straight out of the box and its not just one camera but several reported than the product should be recalled and taken off sale until the problem has been fixed, especially a top quality/price item.

I think that too, but last time I mentioned it people did not agree, which in my world that seems a tad strange. 

[XOONS]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb 250swb:

They buy a camera for $6000 so at that price they think it's impressively expensive, enough to brag about, and imagine they deserve the world for it. But it's not expensive for the reasons they think, for bragging rights, for status, or for photographing the damned thing posed next to a cappuccino.

Such simple generalisations do not get us anywhere. Basically, they are cheap insults from people who are seriously trying to ensure that the recurring quality problems at Leica at least become less. I may say goodbye to this thread.
 

[ianman]

13 hours ago, Pyrogallol said:

If a new film camera scratches film straight out of the box and its not just one camera but several reported than the product should be recalled and taken off sale until the problem has been fixed, especially a top quality/price item.

Several out of how many?
If they had a batch of defective pressure plates then it would be overkill to do a full recall. Now when the M9 sensor issue started I was advocating for a full recall because every camera had the potential to be affected. They knew and recognised that fact. But IMHO a full recall for an issue which only hit, fortunately, a small number of cameras would not be effective. People are complaining about the time it takes now, it would probably take much longer if they had to go over every film camera built between two dates. What they should do is communicate to each and every customer about their camera potentially having the issue. How to identify it and what to do.

[madNbad]

4 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Waiting for someone to correct you with "it was not the sensor" like they did me in another thread in 5... 4... 3...

Wasn’t just the glass overlay that started delaminating or growing fungus or reaching out and scratching film?

[ianman]

35 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Waiting for someone to correct you with "it was not the sensor" like they did me in another thread in 5... 4... 3...

I nearly wrote about the glass thing but then thought that the glass is still part of the sensor and in the end it’s the whole sensor assembly which was changed… so the nice, short and simple “sensor” it was.

[28framelines]

15 hours ago, 250swb said:

And my response is that if it costs $6000 to build and make a profit from that should in no way be a marker for ultimate reliability. That is the cost to make it, it isn't a premium buyer guarantee. And this is the problem, people whining imagine that the cost isn't the cost to build the camera, but it's the cost to get into the Gold Star Leica Club. They buy a camera for $6000 so at that price they think it's impressively expensive, enough to brag about, and imagine they deserve the world for it. But it's not expensive for the reasons they think, for bragging rights, for status, or for photographing the damned thing posed next to a cappuccino. It's expensive because it cost a lot to build. 

I suggested some perspective but the whining and butt hurt continues, so let's ramp it up to a level that Leica doesn't even come close to in either price or dissatisfaction. Only 57% of Ferrari owners are happy with their cars. And while that unhappy 43% far exceeds dissatisfaction with Leica the causes are probably very similar, 'I paid a lot so my dream is ruined', 'I paid a lot and now feel embarrassed', and 'Ferrari (Leica) hasn't got a car to replace mine (even though I'd be getting a similar car)'. There is an old and famous anecdote about Enzo Ferrari from the 1960's when an American customer managed to collar him and complain about his new Ferrari rusting. To which Enzo Ferrari responded that he 'sells the customer a superb engine and drivetrain and gives the body for free, so why are you complaining?' I think there are some butt hurt Leica customers who've bought a Leica for reasons that go beyond it being a camera, and then on the rare occasions something goes wrong they inflate their sense of outrage. And before somebody suggests otherwise I've already said it's sad and upsetting when things do go wrong, it shouldn't' happen, but shit does happen.

 

While I agree with the heart of what you’re saying, the _marketing_ surrounding the product makes the potential purchaser excited to buy a high quality, “premium” product for the price they are paying. This is because your explanation, which is probably more true, is much harder to make it sound “sexy” and “appealing” to a potential buyer than what they market. This applies across market segments, not just Leica and Ferrari. If I bought a high quality steel frying pan, I would expect it to cook evenly, and not get ruined by forgetting some oil once or whatnot. That marketing is used everywhere, and thus the people saying “hey what the heck I paid $6000 for a broken camera that I thought was luxury” is _totally valid_ if their belief was that it was going to be perfect because of marketing. If what you’re suggesting about why it costs what it costs is true (and I could see why it would be!), it means there’s a breakdown between product development and marketing at Leica, and so it’s _still their fault and they need to make it right_. So you’re points are valid, but also people who are upset are also valid to feel that way.

[Jdjdjdi]

On 10/10/2023 at 8:51 AM, 250swb said:

And my response is that if it costs $6000 to build and make a profit from that should in no way be a marker for ultimate reliability. That is the cost to make it, it isn't a premium buyer guarantee. And this is the problem, people whining imagine that the cost isn't the cost to build the camera, but it's the cost to get into the Gold Star Leica Club. They buy a camera for $6000 so at that price they think it's impressively expensive, enough to brag about, and imagine they deserve the world for it. But it's not expensive for the reasons they think, for bragging rights, for status, or for photographing the damned thing posed next to a cappuccino. It's expensive because it cost a lot to build. 

I suggested some perspective but the whining and butt hurt continues, so let's ramp it up to a level that Leica doesn't even come close to in either price or dissatisfaction. Only 57% of Ferrari owners are happy with their cars. And while that unhappy 43% far exceeds dissatisfaction with Leica the causes are probably very similar, 'I paid a lot so my dream is ruined', 'I paid a lot and now feel embarrassed', and 'Ferrari (Leica) hasn't got a car to replace mine (even though I'd be getting a similar car)'. There is an old and famous anecdote about Enzo Ferrari from the 1960's when an American customer managed to collar him and complain about his new Ferrari rusting. To which Enzo Ferrari responded that he 'sells the customer a superb engine and drivetrain and gives the body for free, so why are you complaining?' I think there are some butt hurt Leica customers who've bought a Leica for reasons that go beyond it being a camera, and then on the rare occasions something goes wrong they inflate their sense of outrage. And before somebody suggests otherwise I've already said it's sad and upsetting when things do go wrong, it shouldn't' happen, but shit does happen.

 

If you want people to read your posts, use paragraphs 

[250swb]

1 hour ago, Jdjdjdi said:

If you want people to read your posts, use paragraphs 

Short attention span have you? Can't count can you? There are two paragraphs, the second is the longest and at a guess about 225 words. The average length paragraph in a novel is 200 words (they can be shorter or longer is what that means), so we now know you only read picture books, Kaboom! Pow! Take That Troll!

[ianman]

8 hours ago, Jdjdjdi said:

If you want people to read your posts, use paragraphs 

You should see his photos, they are even bigger.

[Bronco McBeast]

On 10/9/2023 at 8:29 PM, 69xchange said:

Yes, I agree that shit does happen, since it’s hand assembled, but for me it’s the fact that they signed the “quality card” saying it was “meticulously examined “. But some how my brand-new MP with a faulty light meter and my brand-new  M-A with a faulty slow speed escapement both passed their “quality standards” (things that should have been tested and examined). 

So it is the their BS that annoys me rather than the rate of their defective products. 

“Meticulously examined” does not mean “microscopically examined”. Who even does that?

Also, my M6 2022 is from the first production batch, I believe I was the first owner in the country, and it does not scratch film. So… I don’t agree the cameras should be recalled. Warranty exists for a reason.

[Bronco McBeast]

On 10/10/2023 at 9:55 AM, 28framelines said:

While I agree with the heart of what you’re saying, the _marketing_ surrounding the product makes the potential purchaser excited to buy a high quality, “premium” product for the price they are paying. This is because your explanation, which is probably more true, is much harder to make it sound “sexy” and “appealing” to a potential buyer than what they market. This applies across market segments, not just Leica and Ferrari. If I bought a high quality steel frying pan, I would expect it to cook evenly, and not get ruined by forgetting some oil once or whatnot. That marketing is used everywhere, and thus the people saying “hey what the heck I paid $6000 for a broken camera that I thought was luxury” is _totally valid_ if their belief was that it was going to be perfect because of marketing. If what you’re suggesting about why it costs what it costs is true (and I could see why it would be!), it means there’s a breakdown between product development and marketing at Leica, and so it’s _still their fault and they need to make it right_. So you’re points are valid, but also people who are upset are also valid to feel that way.

The average buyer buys a Leica to become HCB. 
To be part of a secret exclusive Gold Club. 
A psychological gain. 
It has nothing to do with the velvety feeling of perfection.

The seasoned buyer buys a Leica knowingly full well what it is and is not. A back scratching film? No need to ctry an Opera online about it: a 1000 grit sand paper will do. Next.

A lens with separation? Yeah, canada balsam.

A summicron with soft scratched coatings? 
yeah, poetry.

Lenses with TERRIBLE flare control?
Yeah, Leicas.

 

Rebadged Panasonics for 5x the price? Yeah…

Going from Brass to Zinc? Yeah, totally a Leica move.

Modern Black chrome cameras aging and looking like Sheet versus old Black Chromes? Modern Silver Chrome merely a relic of the old Top Quality? No company in the world can get away with such moves… except… yeah, Leica.

A digital camera so slow, two generations behind (or was it THREE?) when it  was launched. A total masquerade circus of a product. Not a single company could survive that. But then… yeah, Leica.

Perfection?? Where??

People just make things up and create expectations themselves.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Bronco McBeast

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[69xchange]

4 hours ago, Bronco McBeast said:

“Meticulously examined” does not mean “microscopically examined”. Who even does that?

Also, my M6 2022 is from the first production batch, I believe I was the first owner in the country, and it does not scratch film. So… I don’t agree the cameras should be recalled. Warranty exists for a reason.

What?? So you're telling me that Leica can just throw the light meter in the camera and basically "pass it" without even testing it?? I don't believe the function of the light meter requires "microscopical examination". It would be a normal day to day use thing when shooting....

Lets say, I can agree with you that a recall is NOT necessary and thus there is "warranty".. However, lets not talk about turnaround time of their "warranty" and save it for another thread.