Is the 240 still a good choice to get started with a M?

[Ernstk]

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16 hours ago, tsleica said:

But I dont think the RF is particularly good for wide angles but 50/75/90/135 are fast and easy... 35mm and below are not as natural or easy to frame with...esp 28mm.

The RF is extremely good for wide angles. They're the natural sweet spot for a rangefinder.

Despite what you say, anything beyond 50mm has no place on a rangefinder. Using the framelines, the 28 and 35 are way more natural to use than a 90 or 135.

My 21mm Elmarit (used without external VF) practically lives on my M-P 240 and I also use my 'Lux 35 pre asph. Using lenses like these defines the rangefinder experience.

Ernst

[tsleica]

For me..50 and up are easier..

Too much looking around for the framlines for the 35mm..and 28mm frames are too extreme to see w/o strain. And I dont use glasses.

I like the M6 frames better for wides..but not the M240 which is not as good.

[DBAUDUI1]

I have been using the Leica M240 for 8 years now, and I am still happy with it.  I am limiting myself to 3500 ISO to take very nice pictures of Jazz concert for example in low light, using very wide aperture lenses from Leica (Summilux ASPH 28, 35 en 50 mm, Apo summicron 75 end 90 mm, Apo Telyt 135mm and thanks to live view, apo macro Elmarit 100 and Apo Telyt 180mm as well as vario Elmar 35-70.  With the summaron 28 and older summicron 50mm (7L) and 35 mm (8L) or summaron 35 the M240 gives also marvelous results. I work all my DNG files through Lightroom.  I actually preferred to invest in lenses than in bodies so far. I have come from the analog film world where I used 64 ISO Kodak chrome films and 400 ISO Trix; so 3500 ISO is a luxury and typically I use 800 ASA on the M240. Then there is live view and video, which you do not have on any other M leica! The Electronic Viewfinder is good enough to make perfect pictures (with lenses from 75mm up to 360mm). The only limitation of the EVF is its nearly 1 sec delay when you take a picture. It is not a problem for static images, but well for movements. But I have learned to anticipate movements and I fire 1 sec before the climax of a movement. The Vario 35-75 is used in live view to produce marvelous videos of classic music (with the stereo microphone) for example. I also use videos for carnivals (Merce of Barcelona for example with the summilux 28mm!) or theater plays...  The only limitation of video is the 10 minutes max length of recording which is not always enough to record a full movement of Brahms... 

Maybe one day I will buy the M11 for its better EVF and sensor, but to me the Leica M240 does 90% of what the M11 can do and more (video). Therefore I am not in a hurry to buy a M11 and still use the M240 extensively with great pleasure and succes. The pictures the M240 produces have some grain which people actually love (analog film like) and you do not find any more on the Leica M11 which produces more clean (clinical?) pictures.

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by DBAUDUI1

[cnguyen]

Leica M240 series has the best colors in my opinion. I also have an M10 eventhough with high ISOs its colors are kind of washed-out.

[pgh]

Million different answers. You can't really go wrong (well except it's Leica so weird things can always go wrong regardless of the model you choose.)

I'd do an M10 without a second thought, and provided a not crazy time frame can yield the necessary extra savings. 

The differences in the end are pretty subtle, but for me, significant. The IQ on the M10 is a subtle but (for me) worthwhile improvement. The body size is a subtle improvement. I've never had an issue with the battery life. YMMV. I never loved the 240 but only took it for spins never owned. I owned an M8 and sold it because for me it was a camera not really ready for release. M9's didn't do it for me either. Same with M11, which I also am not interested in. The M10 series is the best Leica's done IMO - and I still feel that way almost 6 years after I got it.

[tsleica]

You can squeeze about 18 min out of the M240 for video if you film at the lowest setting.

They really should re-release this camera with updated everything and it would be a monster!

Edited May 15, 2023 by tsleica

[cboy]

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2c. I been trying out DXO pure Raw 3 and I'm impressed at its ability to reduce noise, though at the expense of 3x the file size. I'd say it can add at least extra stop recovery with a m240. YMMV however to the degree one can tolerate noise. So in essence it can stave off gas for a M10/M11 for just a bit more PP work at the back end (few clicks in their workflow), but I believe it's definitely worth it! M240 owners can rest assured that their images are future proofed.😄

 

[sometimesmaybe]

2 hours ago, cboy said:

I'd say it can add at least extra stop recovery with a m240

i suspect the tech will only get better!

[Dex_Keshin]

19 hours ago, cboy said:

2c. I been trying out DXO pure Raw 3 and I'm impressed at its ability to reduce noise, though at the expense of 3x the file size. I'd say it can add at least extra stop recovery with a m240. YMMV however to the degree one can tolerate noise. So in essence it can stave off gas for a M10/M11 for just a bit more PP work at the back end (few clicks in their workflow), but I believe it's definitely worth it! M240 owners can rest assured that their images are future proofed.😄

 

I have a M-E typ 240, and I just bought DxO PureRaw3 a little while and its crazy good, that de-noise algorithm is truly exceptional.

Normally I shoot in ISO 1600 max, now I can shoot in ISO 3200 with slower aperture, though the file size is really huge, like over a 100MB for a photo.

[catacore]

On 3/12/2023 at 8:30 PM, catacore said:

Having bought an M240 in December last year, I thought I may give here my two cents: my first reason for buying a 10 years old (technology) camera was sort of "swim against the flow" - getting tired of MPx race, instant AF with human/mamal/bird/insect - eye detection, bigger and faster f/1.2 lenses and so on (disclaimer: I have just bought a CV35/1.2 III M-mount recently 😲 ). Then I wanted to try the "rangefinder experience". And to simplify the photographic process.

To say now that I am extremely happy with this move would be an exageration (especially after the honey-moon was over). What I can say is that I have sold (or have still for sale) all my Sony lenses and cameras, except for the A7C which I keep as a back-up, only to be used with my M lenses (also kept the Sigma 90mm f2.8 until i willl, eventually, buy a 90mm in M-mount). Meanwhile enjoying the M240 and coming in terms with its shortcomings. Also thinking of upgrading to M-10(P) if only for the better ISO performance and OVF.

As for "Leica cameras are holding their value", that must be true only for analog cameras, my attempts to calculate the upgrading price have showed me that I have already lost few hundreads of euros (buy vs sale price at dealers). So, I would have better went straight for the M10 in the first place (should I have known I would enjoy the "rangefinder experience").

L.E. One thing is for sure: since I bought the M240 I am shooting more, and I enjoy shooting more 😍

Just quoting myself from 2 months back, I have to say today that I got completely fed-up with this Leica M system ("experience"). The only joy I had using it was the focusing using the rangefinder (funny enough, this was the very reason I was most worried about before buying my M240). Everything else was just frustration.

What about simplifying the photographic process? Well, this is a joke, in my view. One cannot simplify something by adding more limitations. Funny enough: the more money one pays for better/newer camera models (like M10-R or M11) the more limitations one gets (lesser battery, increased shutter speed needed due to more Mpx for the lack of IBIS, etc.).

In hindsight, I would have never bought my M240, or any M camera, for this reason. So glad I refrained from "upgrading" and losing more money in the process. But again, one needs to experience this. Just reading on the web the pros and cons does not help at all.

Just my other 2 cents...

[tsleica]

Yeah...

I was shooting with my Sigma FP yesterday..and thought..this is a great camera..and if it had a rangefinder on top the M would be toast lol.

Its smaller than the M too.

M240 files are nowhere near the FP..the M ditches the blacks and crushes the highlights..and its pretty old tech at this point in time...and is louder.

But it is still fun to shoot w/M. And I am keeping my camera for the rangefinder.

And at the price I got it for..it really was a no brainer.

I think they should reissue the 240 someday...w/L mount and autofocus when needed...maybe ibis too..all the bells and whistles...& video. 

And keep the M mount for the photo only people..and charge them for the privilege.

Edited May 17, 2023 by tsleica

[sometimesmaybe]

3 hours ago, catacore said:

Just quoting myself from 2 months back, I have to say today that I got completely fed-up with this Leica M system ("experience"). The only joy I had using it was the focusing using the rangefinder (funny enough, this was the very reason I was most worried about before buying my M240). Everything else was just frustration.

What about simplifying the photographic process? Well, this is a joke, in my view. One cannot simplify something by adding more limitations. Funny enough: the more money one pays for better/newer camera models (like M10-R or M11) the more limitations one gets (lesser battery, increased shutter speed needed due to more Mpx for the lack of IBIS, etc.).

In hindsight, I would have never bought my M240, or any M camera, for this reason. So glad I refrained from "upgrading" and losing more money in the process. But again, one needs to experience this. Just reading on the web the pros and cons does not help at all.

Just my other 2 cents...

thanks for sharing your thoughts, could i ask what aspect of the M system you found so frustrating? 

[catacore]

9 hours ago, sometimesmaybe said:

thanks for sharing your thoughts, could i ask what aspect of the M system you found so frustrating? 

Well, that would be:

- composing using the rangefinder (being inacurate, to say the least). And the fact you can't preview what you will actually get with regards of composition, exposure, DOF/bokeh in real time (need to chimp after each click just to check if my intent has been achieved or not). Still wondering about Ralph Gibson's quote, something like "...the shortest way between intent and result"

- min. focusing distance

- lots of accessories needed if one need to counteract some of the limitations (like EVF - very poor // magnifier - eliminates the advantage of seeing more around the framelines // external viewfinders for using wide angle lenses // handgrip+thumbrest - because the camera body is shaped like a brick)

- aged technology (talking about M240 here) - comparatively, for the price, there is no competition in my eyes: the M-system is way overpriced for what it offers

- bugs, bugs, bugs: I got my M240 to freeze many times. Even after I though I found the reason being the too big capacity SD card (128GB), still got frozen camera with the only option to pull off the battery in order to ressurect it. I don't remember having the freeze issue with any of my previous digital cameras, starting with Nikon D80 and ending with Sony A7 series cameras.

- price (I should have started with this one): any piece of accessory, just because is designed for the M-system (while not being Leica made), would be much more expensive. Even the "camera users manuals" made by some guys like Overgaard are extremely expensive just because Leica name is involved (counterintuitively, that manual being about a simpler camera system, one would expect to be shorter and easier to put together, so less expensive in the end - which is not the case). We can count here also the Leica workshops prices - same story here. Camera straps: a big laugh here - some asks more that 300 USD for such a thing....

Those are from my experience with M240, but I read about people complaining about using high Mpx M cameras (M10-R, M11) and getting blurred pictures due to the lack of IBIS, so one needs to limit the shutter speed to counteract for this issue. One can always improve its technique, but just to a certain point. Shooting an M11 at 1/F shutter speed will not work for many, hence some are declaring they never shot less than 1/250 s (basically they have 5 stops of usable SS). And are paying big money for this....

[cboy]

13 hours ago, catacore said:

Just quoting myself from 2 months back, I have to say today that I got completely fed-up with this Leica M system ("experience"). The only joy I had using it was the focusing using the rangefinder (funny enough, this was the very reason I was most worried about before buying my M240). Everything else was just frustration.

What about simplifying the photographic process? Well, this is a joke, in my view. One cannot simplify something by adding more limitations. Funny enough: the more money one pays for better/newer camera models (like M10-R or M11) the more limitations one gets (lesser battery, increased shutter speed needed due to more Mpx for the lack of IBIS, etc.).

In hindsight, I would have never bought my M240, or any M camera, for this reason. So glad I refrained from "upgrading" and losing more money in the process. But again, one needs to experience this. Just reading on the web the pros and cons does not help at all.

Just my other 2 cents...

So I guess the the honeymoon period wasn't over two months ago.😉 But I gotta agree with the points with you made, however I still put up with it as I'm purely a hobbyist at heart and frankly the M is the closest digitally to the analogue experience. Mind you I still have other digital camera to make up for the Ms shortcomings, but we all know there's never a perfect camera.

[Casey Jefferson]

I bought a Q2 for many reasons stated below, but after few months of being impressed by the good stuffs, ultimately I'm returning to the M240(P), for the tonality and colors alone. I can get the Q2 to render very close, but the M240 just has something that I can't put down in words, that's desirable. Many people swear by the M9 for same reason but after trying out the two long term, I end up prefer the 240. Granted my unit worked flawlessly after 4k clicks, with 128GB SD card (90mb/s) living in it. 

If Leica come out with auto focus camera that renders like the M240, even with a fixed lens, I'm in. I guess it'll never happen so long live the M240...

2 hours ago, catacore said:

Well, that would be:

- composing using the rangefinder (being inacurate, to say the least). And the fact you can't preview what you will actually get with regards of composition, exposure, DOF/bokeh in real time (need to chimp after each click just to check if my intent has been achieved or not). Still wondering about Ralph Gibson's quote, something like "...the shortest way between intent and result"

- min. focusing distance

- lots of accessories needed if one need to counteract some of the limitations (like EVF - very poor // magnifier - eliminates the advantage of seeing more around the framelines // external viewfinders for using wide angle lenses // handgrip+thumbrest - because the camera body is shaped like a brick)

- aged technology (talking about M240 here) - comparatively, for the price, there is no competition in my eyes: the M-system is way overpriced for what it offers

- bugs, bugs, bugs: I got my M240 to freeze many times. Even after I though I found the reason being the too big capacity SD card (128GB), still got frozen camera with the only option to pull off the battery in order to ressurect it. I don't remember having the freeze issue with any of my previous digital cameras, starting with Nikon D80 and ending with Sony A7 series cameras.

- price (I should have started with this one): any piece of accessory, just because is designed for the M-system (while not being Leica made), would be much more expensive. Even the "camera users manuals" made by some guys like Overgaard are extremely expensive just because Leica name is involved (counterintuitively, that manual being about a simpler camera system, one would expect to be shorter and easier to put together, so less expensive in the end - which is not the case). We can count here also the Leica workshops prices - same story here. Camera straps: a big laugh here - some asks more that 300 USD for such a thing....

Those are from my experience with M240, but I read about people complaining about using high Mpx M cameras (M10-R, M11) and getting blurred pictures due to the lack of IBIS, so one needs to limit the shutter speed to counteract for this issue. One can always improve its technique, but just to a certain point. Shooting an M11 at 1/F shutter speed will not work for many, hence some are declaring they never shot less than 1/250 s (basically they have 5 stops of usable SS). And are paying big money for this....

 

[sometimesmaybe]

3 hours ago, catacore said:

Well, that would be:

- composing using the rangefinder (being inacurate, to say the least). And the fact you can't preview what you will actually get with regards of composition, exposure, DOF/bokeh in real time (need to chimp after each click just to check if my intent has been achieved or not). Still wondering about Ralph Gibson's quote, something like "...the shortest way between intent and result"

- min. focusing distance

- lots of accessories needed if one need to counteract some of the limitations (like EVF - very poor // magnifier - eliminates the advantage of seeing more around the framelines // external viewfinders for using wide angle lenses // handgrip+thumbrest - because the camera body is shaped like a brick)

- aged technology (talking about M240 here) - comparatively, for the price, there is no competition in my eyes: the M-system is way overpriced for what it offers

- bugs, bugs, bugs: I got my M240 to freeze many times. Even after I though I found the reason being the too big capacity SD card (128GB), still got frozen camera with the only option to pull off the battery in order to ressurect it. I don't remember having the freeze issue with any of my previous digital cameras, starting with Nikon D80 and ending with Sony A7 series cameras.

- price (I should have started with this one): any piece of accessory, just because is designed for the M-system (while not being Leica made), would be much more expensive. Even the "camera users manuals" made by some guys like Overgaard are extremely expensive just because Leica name is involved (counterintuitively, that manual being about a simpler camera system, one would expect to be shorter and easier to put together, so less expensive in the end - which is not the case). We can count here also the Leica workshops prices - same story here. Camera straps: a big laugh here - some asks more that 300 USD for such a thing....

Those are from my experience with M240, but I read about people complaining about using high Mpx M cameras (M10-R, M11) and getting blurred pictures due to the lack of IBIS, so one needs to limit the shutter speed to counteract for this issue. One can always improve its technique, but just to a certain point. Shooting an M11 at 1/F shutter speed will not work for many, hence some are declaring they never shot less than 1/250 s (basically they have 5 stops of usable SS). And are paying big money for this....

i must respectively agree with every point you have made (expensive, hilarious ergonomics and dated tech), where i differ, is in the conclusion. despite of all the drawbacks outlined above, i just love the images from my m246 (so much so that i'm actively looking to acquire a m240 or mp240).

i also shoot with a GFX100s with some ridiculously good Fuji glass, but i'm just not in love with the images. the 100 megapixels is both a blessing and a curse. there is great flexibility when i stuff up the composition and need to crop, but on the flip side, i end up spending 30 mins touching up each image in post. the GFX and GF lenses render too much detail - if i published the images 'as is' i'm likely to get clubbed by my models (with my GFX) 😅

please apply an appropriate amount of salt to my comments - i only shoot portraits where focusing speed, DR and low ISO are less relevant

 

[catacore]

Truth is I will keep the M240 for now, there is no real reason to sell it as I don't need any cash now (I am a hobbist too, shooting mainly still subjects, but still, this camera drives me mad at times).

I also have an A7C to which I can adapt all the M lenses. I am quite sorry that I have sold my Sony 50mm f1.2 GM (as big as it is, its a wonderful rendering lens - IMO). At least I have a fancy camera now, although in my small town nobody can really recognize a Leica camera 🤣.

[dugby]

With regards to M240 freezing, In my 9 years of usage, I only ever had one freeze with an earlier firmware version circa 2014, and after subsequent firmware upgrades, never had another freeze.

My M240 has travelled 75,000km across 5 continents and has been extremely reliable.

For it’s age and current market price, I’d recommend it to my family & friends with neither hesitation nor embarrassment.

[Ernstk]

On 5/17/2023 at 7:34 PM, catacore said:

Just quoting myself from 2 months back, I have to say today that I got completely fed-up with this Leica M system ("experience"). The only joy I had using it was the focusing using the rangefinder (funny enough, this was the very reason I was most worried about before buying my M240). Everything else was just frustration.

What about simplifying the photographic process? Well, this is a joke, in my view. One cannot simplify something by adding more limitations. Funny enough: the more money one pays for better/newer camera models (like M10-R or M11) the more limitations one gets (lesser battery, increased shutter speed needed due to more Mpx for the lack of IBIS, etc.).

In hindsight, I would have never bought my M240, or any M camera, for this reason. So glad I refrained from "upgrading" and losing more money in the process. But again, one needs to experience this. Just reading on the web the pros and cons does not help at all.

Just my other 2 cents...

Not everyone has the ability required to understand and to get the best out of a Leica M, so don't beat yourself up too much.

Ernst

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[catacore]

On 5/24/2023 at 10:53 AM, Ernstk said:

Not everyone has the ability required to understand and to get the best out of a Leica M, so don't beat yourself up too much.

Ernst

I like very much the photographic process in itself, that's why I acquired such a camera. That's why I can't photograph using my mobile phone - because I miss the process. 

Unfortunatelly, I was talking about basic stuff, like framing, exposure, white balance - that my M240 is not capable of doing right all the time. I came to not trust my M240 because it fails to deliver what I ask it to deliver. As simple as this: framing, exposure, white balance. Truth is I don't understad why this camera would chose, for instance, a SS of 1/1000 and ISO 2500 in daylight, outdoors, when I set the aperture of my 35mm lens at f/8 - and the result being a blown out picture.