SL 50mm S'cron ASPH s/h price too good to be true?

[dkCambridgeshire]

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https://www.lcegroup.co.uk/Used/Leica-50mm-F2-Asph-Summicron-SL_385049.html

.... .... could benefit a forum member if MODS do not object to the mention .... but be prepared for it being a TYPO or error? 

BW, dunk 

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[Stuart Richardson]

That is the ASPH lens, which is made in Japan, presumably by Panasonic, not the APO Summicron, which is the more expensive version made in Germany by Leica. The UK retail is around 1800 pounds, so it seems like that price is totally normal for a used copy in excellent condition.

[trickness]

Yeah, thats the non APO

[dkCambridgeshire]

Noted and thank you .... my error ... I'm not so familar with PanaLeica SL lenses

[Simone_DF]

18 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

https://www.lcegroup.co.uk/Used/Leica-50mm-F2-Asph-Summicron-SL_385049.html

.... .... could benefit a forum member if MODS do not object to the mention .... but be prepared for it being a TYPO or error? 

BW, dunk 

Price is not good at all considering it’s just a regular Panasonic lens usually sold for less than 500€, but with a Leica housing. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

Price is not good at all considering it’s just a regular Panasonic lens usually sold for less than 500€, but with a Leica housing. 

 

19 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

That is the ASPH lens, which is made in Japan, presumably by Panasonic, not the APO Summicron, which is the more expensive version made in Germany by Leica. The UK retail is around 1800 pounds, so it seems like that price is totally normal for a used copy in excellent condition.

Actually it's a Leica made lens, made in Portugal.

The design is the same as the Panasonic lens but the ASPH elements are ground, per Leica's standards, and not moulded like the Panasonic version. It also has a different build quality and outer shell. Info straight from Leica.

Gordon

[Virob]

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9 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

 

Actually it's a Leica made lens, made in Portugal.

The design is the same as the Panasonic lens but the ASPH elements are ground, per Leica's standards, and not moulded like the Panasonic version. It also has a different build quality and outer shell. Info straight from Leica.

Gordon

Can you point to the information that the ASPH elements in the Leica are ground vs molded in the Panasonic version? This would be a significant difference that I wasn’t aware of.  Thanks..

[FlashGordonPhotography]

3 hours ago, Virob said:

Can you point to the information that the ASPH elements in the Leica are ground vs molded in the Panasonic version? This would be a significant difference that I wasn’t aware of.  Thanks..

No I can’t. I was told directly by a Leica Store employee here in Australia. I suppose he could be lying but I know him well and he’s not prone to bullshit or exaggeration.

Gordon

[Stuart Richardson]

Can you elaborate why this would matter, assuming the same lens formula and proper tolerances? I am not up on my optical machining requirements...I would assume that the tolerances in a modern lens are very high and would need to be met by either method...

And I am sorry for stating it was made in Japan! I knew it was based on a Panasonic formula (or at least seemed VERY similar), and they have made other lenses in Japan before (like the TL lenses, for example), so I assumed it was done there.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[goodbokeh]

Stuart my understanding is that a ground ASPH element will provide smoother bokeh balls and better overall clarity. The recently introduced Voigtlander 50mm f1.0 features a ground ASPH front element and they are quite proud that they did so. It's an expensive process. So expensive that back in the 90's Leica quickly discontinued their 35mm AA Summilux-M with ground ASPH elements for a molded ASPH version.

The Leica Store employee saying the new economical SL 50mm ASPH has a ground elements. Well, I don't want to insult Flash's friend but that is just really hard to believe and there is zero backup for that claim.

Edited August 28, 2023 by goodbokeh
typo

[epand56]

I'm used to take pictures with my Leica, but I'm not very tech about what's inside a lens. Could someone please explain the difference between "ground" and "molded" aspherical elements? Thank you.

Edited August 28, 2023 by epand56

[Simone_DF]

14 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

No I can’t. I was told directly by a Leica Store employee here in Australia. I suppose he could be lying but I know him well and he’s not prone to bullshit or exaggeration.

No offence, but unfortunately, without a written statement from Leica, this is just a conjecture from a Leica Store employee.

Just a few months ago, some Leica employees stated that the Q3 case was Arca-Swiss compatible even though it's not.  

[Simone_DF]

12 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Can you elaborate why this would matter, assuming the same lens formula and proper tolerances? I am not up on my optical machining requirements...I would assume that the tolerances in a modern lens are very high and would need to be met by either method...

And I am sorry for stating it was made in Japan! I knew it was based on a Panasonic formula (or at least seemed VERY similar), and they have made other lenses in Japan before (like the TL lenses, for example), so I assumed it was done there.

The 24-70 is made in Japan, perhaps you are mixing up the two?

[Simone_DF]

11 hours ago, goodbokeh said:

It's an expensive process. So expensive that back in the 90's Leica quickly discontinued their 35mm AA Summilux-M with ground ASPH elements for a molded ASPH version.

The Leica Store employee saying the new economical SL 50mm ASPH has a ground elements. Well, I don't want to insult Flash's friend but that is just really hard to believe and there is zero backup for that claim.

So basically they are using a very expensive method for the cheaper line, and a cheaper method for the more expensive lenses? Makes sense.

[Ivar B]

I believe several tests (even carried out by Leica stores) confirm that optically the Leica and Panasonic lenses have identical performance. Identical. 

The housing is a different story though - the Leica lens is vastly superior.

It may seem that if the Leica APO SL 2/50 is too expensive, the best lens of the "low" cost ones is the Sigma 2/50. Supposedly clearly outperforming the Panasonic lens (but more expensive also). 

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

So basically they are using a very expensive method for the cheaper line, and a cheaper method for the more expensive lenses? Makes sense.

That was 30 years ago (1994)! I'm sure they've had enough time to improve the process for grinding aspherical surfaces since then. The 1994 molded ASPH was replaced in 2010.

1 hour ago, Ivar B said:

I believe several tests (even carried out by Leica stores) confirm that optically the Leica and Panasonic lenses have identical performance. Identical. 

Do you have any links? I haven't seen any comparative tests.

[goodbokeh]

Bernard, here is a video comparing the Leica 50/2 ASPH to the Panasonic Lumix 50/1.8. It boils down to construction quality differences, the optics are the same. It's a well done video, not a hatchet job trashing the Leica because of the $. Candidly, I think the 35 & 50 SL ASPHs are overpriced and should be 25% less to make them top sellers vs buying mint SL APOs.

 

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, goodbokeh said:

It boils down to construction quality differences, the optics are the same. It's a well done video, not a hatchet job trashing the Leica because of the $.

According to this video, the Summicron has sharper corners, which is interesting. It's not very conclusive though, because he only has two shots with corner detail, and both were shot in similar conditions (f-stop, focus distance). 

It's not a scientific test, but you can see a difference even in a low-res screen grab. One would assume that the difference is even more noticeable in a print, or on a better/bigger screen. 

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

20 hours ago, goodbokeh said:

Stuart my understanding is that a ground ASPH element will provide smoother bokeh balls and better overall clarity. The recently introduced Voigtlander 50mm f1.0 features a ground ASPH front element and they are quite proud that they did so. It's an expensive process. So expensive that back in the 90's Leica quickly discontinued their 35mm AA Summilux-M with ground ASPH elements for a molded ASPH version.

The Leica Store employee saying the new economical SL 50mm ASPH has a ground elements. Well, I don't want to insult Flash's friend but that is just really hard to believe and there is zero backup for that claim.

 

8 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

No offence, but unfortunately, without a written statement from Leica, this is just a conjecture from a Leica Store employee.

Just a few months ago, some Leica employees stated that the Q3 case was Arca-Swiss compatible even though it's not.  

No offense taken. Just relaying what I was told. I agree that it's just a single unproven source. I will take him at his word but I don't expect others to.

Gordon

[goodbokeh]

53 minutes ago, BernardC said:

According to this video, the Summicron has sharper corners, which is interesting. It's not very conclusive though, because he only has two shots with corner detail, and both were shot in similar conditions (f-stop, focus distance). 

It's not a scientific test, but you can see a difference even in a low-res screen grab. One would assume that the difference is even more noticeable in a print, or on a better/bigger screen. 

Alex Barrera ascribed the Summicron's sharper corners to the higher construction quality-less sample variation. That seems reasonable to me. He mentioned in the video there was a link to full resolution Raws. Here is the link to those Raws: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dlwu5am169ws4cd/AACKxFyR0QZ9MnF_SbkwTrbfa?dl=0