Internal differences between M2 and MP

[Vlad Soare]

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Speaking of the plastic part in the frame counter mechanism,

a) is it the only plastic part inside a modern Leica M (I'm talking solely about internals, not the ISO dial or other such trifles)?
b) when it finally breaks, can it be replaced with a metal one?

 

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[LocalHero1953]

7 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Message for the OP.

First M is not easy to choose.

The second M may come easier, then there is no limit if you are bitten by the bug.

And I have two (M4 and MP), and three Barnacks, but I’m really really not a collector. I know I’m not…….

[williamj]

On 8/26/2023 at 11:41 PM, Bronco McBeast said:

Sure, intermediate speeds can be chosen on the new MP.

It appears you are correct, which makes sense. Leica says only that the shutter dial has click stops, nothing about intermediate shutter speeds. Cruising the web, I see Ken Rockwell says that you can choose intermediate shutter speeds but that they aren’t recognised by the light meter. That’s the only other reference I could find. Would be nice to know whether the light meter does or does not recognise intermediate shutter speeds. Cheers. 

[Vlad Soare]

  

13 minutes ago, williamj said:

Leica says only that the shutter dial has click stops, nothing about intermediate shutter speeds.

Here's what my M-A manual says:

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Edited August 31, 2023 by Vlad Soare

[Vlad Soare]

Actually, I see the same note in the MP manual as well:

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[williamj]

15 minutes ago, Vlad Soare said:

Actually, I see the same note in the MP manual as well:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Ah, thanks very much for the M-A and MP excerpts. Perhaps some users are selecting intermediate shutter speeds and their cameras are not breaking despite Leica saying they shouldn’t do it. Cheers. 

[a.noctilux]

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15 minutes ago, Vlad Soare said:

Actually, I see the same note in the MP manual as well:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

MP meter system has right "electronic" value only for clicked positions, not intermediate positions for LED.

Weird for M-A though, maybe those values are not calibrated.

...

M5 can be used at every shutter value.

[williamj]

11 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

MP meter system has right "electronic" value only for clicked positions, not intermediate positions for LED.

Weird for M-A though, maybe those values are not calibrated.

...

M5 can be used at every shutter value.

Thanks. That’s very interesting. It suggests continuous readings could be obtained with a different meter in the MP. I’m confused why Leica says you can’t use intermediate shutter speeds if the shutter design hasn’t changed and the shutter dial is essentially the same, especially in the M-A which looks like the old dial. 

[Vlad Soare]

10 minutes ago, williamj said:

I’m confused why Leica says you can’t use intermediate shutter speeds if the shutter design hasn’t changed and the shutter dial is essentially the same, especially in the M-A which looks like the old dial. 

We don't know that the shutter design hasn't changed.
The M5 shutter speed dial is different, and Leica specifically says in the manual that intermediate speeds can be used.
 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

This suggests that the shutter speed regulation mechanism is different in the M5 than in the later generations.

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Vlad Soare

[williamj]

4 hours ago, Vlad Soare said:

We don't know that the shutter design hasn't changed.
The M5 shutter speed dial is different, and Leica specifically says in the manual that intermediate speeds can be used.
 

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This suggests that the shutter speed regulation mechanism is different in the M5 than in the later generations.

 

Well I base my comments on my reading of Erwin Puts on mechanical Leica cameras where he says the Leica shutter is unchanged into the later cameras like the M6 and MP because it is a core value of the M experience. The M3, M2, M4, M5 etc can use intermediate shutter speeds, my M3 certainly can use intermediate shutter speeds, and the M3 and several other dials look like the M-A dial. If the MP can't use intermediate shutter speeds then the mechanism controlling the width between the shutter curtains and operated by the shutter dial is different.

But reading what others have said on this thread it seems that you can use intermediate shutter speeds with the MP, which means the mechanism is unchanged. That makes sense from a manufacturing process, why spend money changing something when you can keep making something that works perfectly. In the handbooks you scanned, thanks for sharing that, Leica says you may not use intermediate speeds, it does not actually say you can't or that the mechanism is unable to do so. Leica handbooks have on occasion been known to be slightly different to the product and are not written by the engineers :). It is possible that text for one model is copied for a different model. Well that's my opinion and I look forward to handling an MP one day to determine it for myself Cheers.

[Anbaric]

Swiss photographer Fabian Oefner tried to use his M6 at an intermediate speed and this is what happened!

[a.noctilux]

Side note, old user of M5, I appreciate a lot the precision of the light meter, slides from this M5 were "perfectly" exposed, precise limited field.

When I purchased M6 replacing M5, I regretted not be able to use intermediate shutter speeds and guessing metered field.

Problem solved quickly using the intermediate (infinite settings) between two stops (well not when lens in wide open).

Since then, fine tuning exposures with slides was simplified.

[Vlad Soare]

On 8/30/2023 at 12:59 PM, Vlad Soare said:

Speaking of the plastic part in the frame counter mechanism,

a) is it the only plastic part inside a modern Leica M (I'm talking solely about internals, not the ISO dial or other such trifles)?
b) when it finally breaks, can it be replaced with a metal one?

 

Does anyone know this?

 

[a.noctilux]

2 hours ago, Vlad Soare said:

Does anyone know this?

 

Leica maybe.

Why don't you ask at source, Leica can (if they want to...) answer.

For b ) ...new plastic/metal part can last untill it breaks 😉

my answer is from my experience of decades user of Leica M, each "part" can break or malfunction, so I'd not bother.

On my multiple M4, for example the eyelets (brass made) were replaced quite often, they turned in use or quickly worn, untill Leica replaced with steel made eyelets, on later M.

I saw with pleasure that on late MP/M-A these steel eylets are fixed with 2 screws.

 

[LocalHero1953]

Intermediate shutter speeds......

There's a difference between:

1. Setting the dial to intermediate speeds and the camera actually using those speeds
2. Setting the dial to intermediate speeds and the camera using either the faster or the slower speed
3. Setting the dial to intermediate speeds and the camera refusing to take a shot (or breaking).

My guess (I have no knowledge) is that the MP and MA are (2), which would be consistent with the instructions. I have neither of my film Ms without film loaded to check.

[Vlad Soare]

5 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Leica maybe.

Why don't you ask at source, Leica can (if they want to...) answer.

Leica will never give us this kind of information. Never. It's not worth even thinking about asking Leica, let alone actually doing it.
However, there are people among us who have opened up Leica M cameras before and have quite a good idea of what's inside. I was hoping that one of them might chime in.

I will reiterate the opening question of this thread. If I were to completely dismantle an M2 and an MP, exactly what differences would I find inside? Exactly what cost-cutting measures will I find in the MP? Come to think of it, let's make that M3 vs. M-A, as they are more similar to each other. We already know one, i.e. the frame counter resetting mechanism. What else?

 

5 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

For b ) ...new plastic/metal part can last untill it breaks 😉

Well, yeah, obviously, but that's not the point. We know for a fact that the plastic piece will eventually break. It's a matter of when, not if. So, when it finally breaks, can it be replaced with one from an M3, to make sure it never breaks again? Are they the same size and shape?

Edited September 3, 2023 by Vlad Soare

[Matlock]

51 minutes ago, Vlad Soare said:

Well, yeah, obviously, but that's not the point. We know for a fact that the plastic piece will eventually break. It's a matter of when, not if. So, when it finally breaks, can it be replaced with one from an M3, to make sure it never breaks again? Are they the same size and shape?

"We know for a fact that the plastic piece will eventually break". Do we? I have been using Leica Ms for over 30 years and I have never had one break, that is just silly talk.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Matlock

[Fotoklaus]

Perhaps the owner won't experience it anymore... 

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[Tom R]

On 8/30/2023 at 12:22 AM, Leicalott said:

Update on my dilemma:

I managed to get down to a camera store that had each variant available to try. Admittedly, they did not have the Kanto-overhauled version of the M2 but did have something similar. I looked at M2, M4, M6 TTL, MP and M-A. 
 

Lo and behold, the M4 took first prize, no question. It felt sublime! I know that each camera will vary depending on condition etc… each of these bodies seemed to be in very good nick FWIW.

I’m now seriously considering M4. Question becomes, do I fork out for a BP….? 

I have two M4-P's and one M4. I use the M4-Ps when (1) I need (modern) speed lights, (2) I am "pairing" bodies, meaning I am putting one film in an M4-P and another film in the M4, or (3) I am using a 28mm lens.

I will say that the overall "feel" of the M4 is superior to the M4-Ps. I recently had to have the master-roller replaced on one of the M4-Ps, but (knock on wood) have had no such problems with the M4--yes, this is anecdotal, at best. 

When I am shooting for "pleasure," I prefer the M4 because it's just a nicer experience ... overall. And no, I am certain that "feel" is a purely subjective experience.

[TomB_tx]

When a product is made through a years-long production there are nearly always numerous changes in construction. Model names are seldom changed because of internal changes, but are either made due to changes in features, or for purely marketing reasons, as "new" products are easier to sell - even if the change is so minor you wouldn't notice without the name change. If the "M2" model had stayed in production all these years, it would likely now be made like the M-A. We quibble over names and minor changes, but the M camera family are largely interchangeable - any one you pick up will be fine. As Erwin Puts pointed out, the MP is basically an M6 with minor improvements. and the Leica RF lineage descends from the M2 (with exceptions in the M5 and CL).

In an automotive analogy, the air-cooled VW Beetle went through countless changes over its production life from the 1940s to 2004. The 2001 that I had drove so much like my old 1962 that most people wouldn't notice the differences, although the hydraulic lifters made it quieter and engine management system more trouble free. But it was still a Beetle at its heart. Most other cars in long production kept a famous model name, while being a string of very different cars, except for the name. Leica changed the names, but at heart they are all basically M2s.