Internal differences between M2 and MP

[Anbaric]

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39 minutes ago, Bronco McBeast said:

The MP’ 288-289xxxx range was mostly M6 innards. Even the lightmeter in those is starting to fail, with one LED or both starting to go off.

[Citation needed]

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[colint544]

Putting my head above the parapet here. The one thing I can never conclusively know - is whether the MP and M-A have a plastic component in the film advance mechanism. I have an M2, and I really like it, especially the 35mm framelines. The MP in black paint looks stunning to me, despite the plastic ISO dial in the more recent ones. But does it also have a plastic part in the film advance, it seems to be anyone's guess? It's like folklore, nobody seems to know for sure.

[Huss]

1 hour ago, colint544 said:

Putting my head above the parapet here. The one thing I can never conclusively know - is whether the MP and M-A have a plastic component in the film advance mechanism. I have an M2, and I really like it, especially the 35mm framelines. The MP in black paint looks stunning to me, despite the plastic ISO dial in the more recent ones. But does it also have a plastic part in the film advance, it seems to be anyone's guess? It's like folklore, nobody seems to know for sure.

DAG told me all modern Leica Ms have the crappy plastic piece that breaks.  He went on a rant about Leica claiming Mechanical Perfection etc!  And I don't blame him - how much money could they possibly have saved?  While charging their customers $5600...

edit - I am talking about the plastic part in the film counter mechanism that shows how many pics you have taken. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Huss

[Bronco McBeast]

3 hours ago, colint544 said:

Putting my head above the parapet here. The one thing I can never conclusively know - is whether the MP and M-A have a plastic component in the film advance mechanism. I have an M2, and I really like it, especially the 35mm framelines. The MP in black paint looks stunning to me, despite the plastic ISO dial in the more recent ones. But does it also have a plastic part in the film advance, it seems to be anyone's guess? It's like folklore, nobody seems to know for sure.

What do you mean by “film advance mechanism”?  
Yes there is a plastic part moving the frame numbered disc, but it is not a part of rhe film advance mechanism.  If it breaks, the frame numbers will not reset to Zero, that’s all.

[colint544]

15 minutes ago, Bronco McBeast said:

What do you mean by “film advance mechanism”?  
Yes there is a plastic part moving the frame numbered disc, but it is not a part of rhe film advance mechanism.  If it breaks, the frame numbers will not reset to Zero, that’s all.

Yes, that's what I meant - the plastic part in the frame counter.  👍

[colint544]

Presumably, even the titanium M-A has this fallible plastic part in the frame counter mechanism. It's a bit of a shame.

[Huss]

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2 hours ago, colint544 said:

Presumably, even the titanium M-A has this fallible plastic part in the frame counter mechanism. It's a bit of a shame.

The advantage of owning a Ti M-A is that you'll be busy staring at the peeling finish that you paid $20K for to worry about the frame counter.

[Matlock]

13 hours ago, Bronco McBeast said:

The MP’ 288-289xxxx range was mostly M6 innards. Even the lightmeter in those is starting to fail, with one LED or both starting to go off.

Not so and this has been discussed so many times.

[Mute-on]

3 hours ago, Matlock said:

Not so and this has been discussed so many times.

Example for reference …

A further discussion …

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Mute-on

[Bronco McBeast]

7 hours ago, Matlock said:

Not so and this has been discussed so many times.

Of course so.

The “discussed so many time” you are refering to is always only you defending the MP, as a self appointed police on the subject. 
 

The very early MP were M6 innards. it’s just tht you weren’t there, really, at the time when these things were discussed and fresh.

[Pyrogallol]

My M4-2 has the frame counter stuck at the -2 start point so I think they used the plastic counter gear even then.

[a.noctilux]

M4-2 was the first M with new style making and made in Canada.

For cost cutting, this saved Leitz but had many flaws which came with the new M cured slowly with later M4-2 then a bit less flaws with M4-P,

then return to Wetzlar with M6 ...

[Matlock]

1 hour ago, Bronco McBeast said:

Of course so.

The “discussed so many time” you are refering to is always only you defending the MP, as a self appointed police on the subject. 
 

The very early MP were M6 innards. it’s just tht you weren’t there, really, at the time when these things were discussed and fresh.

The M6 was discontinued in 1999, the MP was introduced in 2003 and has the metering of the M6TTL (minus the TTL element). This is the usual case of  accepted wisdoms, myths that become facts in the minds of members of forums such as ours.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Matlock

[Anbaric]

The appears to be no interchangeability between the M6 Classic meter, the M6 TTL meter and the MP meter. Neither the Classic nor the TTL can (currently) be fully repaired because of this, though Leica are supposedly working on a solution (watch this space, but don't hold your breath). But I don't see any evidence that the early and late MPs differ substantially either - in the threads quoted above, people are just making broad assertions about the early MP being 'an M6 in disguise' while the later ones supposedly aren't based entirely on the ISO dial changing. Incremental improvements within the lifespan of a model are common. The M6 Classic meter was upgraded during its run, and it gained protective inserts near the strap lugs, etc.

[LocalHero1953]

And a M6 is only a Panasonic in a Leica case anyway.

[Leicalott]

Update on my dilemma:

I managed to get down to a camera store that had each variant available to try. Admittedly, they did not have the Kanto-overhauled version of the M2 but did have something similar. I looked at M2, M4, M6 TTL, MP and M-A. 
 

Lo and behold, the M4 took first prize, no question. It felt sublime! I know that each camera will vary depending on condition etc… each of these bodies seemed to be in very good nick FWIW.

I’m now seriously considering M4. Question becomes, do I fork out for a BP….? 

[madNbad]

28 minutes ago, Leicalott said:

Update on my dilemma:

I managed to get down to a camera store that had each variant available to try. Admittedly, they did not have the Kanto-overhauled version of the M2 but did have something similar. I looked at M2, M4, M6 TTL, MP and M-A. 
 

Lo and behold, the M4 took first prize, no question. It felt sublime! I know that each camera will vary depending on condition etc… each of these bodies seemed to be in very good nick FWIW.

I’m now seriously considering M4. Question becomes, do I fork out for a BP….? 

Currently, I own a M4 and a M4-2. Previously, there was a CL, a early Wetzlar M6, a M6 TTL that had a spray of bubbles across the top plate, which at the crossing points of the Great Recession and the analog sell off, was traded along with six hundred usd to KEH for a M6 TTL Black Lacquer or better known as a Millennium. There was also a M2 and a few Barnacks in there. All the previous Leica’s were sold and I thought I was done with them until I bought the M4. Surprisingly enough, it was the underdog M4-2 that I had eschewed for years that has beguiled me the most.

On a whim I sent member Huss a message asking if he had one and if he wanted to part with it to make room for the brand new M6 that would be arriving soon. We made a deal and the maybe rare, maybe not red dot M4-2 arrived. 

From the start, it was a no frills Leica designed to devour film. It was stealthy, fast and fun to use. The weak points were the aging plastic flash block and the articulated advance lever that didn’t feel nearly as good as the one on the M4. Cruising through the forum, I came across a thread from a member in Hong Kong that was 3D printing replacement flash blocks for the M4-2/M4-P. I got in touch and he made one for me. I took the block and the M4-2 to a local shop that I liked because of the owner. I asked if I should send it to Don Goldberg but he said it wouldn’t be a problem. Then he got sick and was unable to work. The shop was shuttered for two months until his wife opened it up for customers to retrieve their gear. I brought it home and the plastic tip of the advance lever fell off in my hand. Fortune had smiled on me. Just days before I bought a MP style one piece advance lever from the same member who had sold me the camera. I took the camera and lever to a shop that I rarely use anymore but having had spent thousands of dollars there, the owner took the two minutes to change it.

It accompanied me or a round trip from Oregon to Pennsylvania and back and the day after I returned, it was boxed and sent to Oregon, Wisconsin. DAG worked his magic and I even had a M3 style lens release collar installed. It has become my favorite camera to use.

The moral of the story is, before tossing wads of money at what may be the ultimate, look at some other stuff first.
 

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, Leicalott said:

Update on my dilemma:

I managed to get down to a camera store that had each variant available to try. Admittedly, they did not have the Kanto-overhauled version of the M2 but did have something similar. I looked at M2, M4, M6 TTL, MP and M-A. 
 

Lo and behold, the M4 took first prize, no question. It felt sublime! I know that each camera will vary depending on condition etc… each of these bodies seemed to be in very good nick FWIW.

I’m now seriously considering M4. Question becomes, do I fork out for a BP….? 

In old cameras that sublime feeling is likely to be specific to that specific body. That BP version you hold out for may feel graunchy, and cost 5 times as much. Which would you rather have? The answer will tell us if you're a photographer or a collector!🙂

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[a.noctilux]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

In old cameras that sublime feeling is likely to be specific to that specific body. That BP version you hold out for may feel graunchy, and cost 5 times as much. Which would you rather have? The answer will tell us if you're a photographer or a collector!🙂

I tend to agree, Paul, even if I don't know in which camp I'm (maybe the two, happy M user and a bit collector when I don't  use them).

 

As side note, now I don't have silver chrome M4 any more, those that I took pictures with for decades.

The last one had shutter problem, first curtain always open, sold to a repairer last year.

I do keep my two black M4 one black paint and one 50th Anniversary I can not decide to sell (at any price ! ).

this one

and-the-one-under-the-others

 

[a.noctilux]

Message for the OP.

First M is not easy to choose.

The second M may come easier, then there is no limit if you are bitten by the bug.