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Leica M11: Totally locked up, can not start (or reset)

patashnik

By patashnik
in Leica M11

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jaapv
jaapv

Leica always complies with its legal obligations. In fact they often go over and beyond. (Example: a six-year old 55-135 TL fell apart in my hands. Leica is sending me a brand new one for a quarter of

jaapv
jaapv

You’ll find that with present day products there is little difference in the electronic components used. The price reflects the concept, production method, mechanical/ optical construction, haptics, r

jaapv
jaapv

Indeed you do not follow me. The higher price is not for higher reliability but for a more desirable product, which is of course a wholly personal preference.  It  don’t like car analogies, but I

IkarusJohn

IkarusJohn

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, jaapv said:

If Leica were not resistant to change, they would not be the survivor they are. 

True, but they are also a bit stick in the mud, don’t you think?  Their arrogant attitude to AF and slow move to SLR in the 1960s almost killed the company; they didn’t try in camera metering until 1971.  But then, at least they tried.  The digital M saved them, along with taking the difficult step of dumping the R system.

I like the fact that they look beyond what customers ask for.  It can come across as “we know best”, and sometimes they get it wrong (in my opinion the M(240) and the M11 were mistakes); but generally, it’s a unique company in an otherwise pretty boring ecosystem of PlayStation cameras (Hasselblad being an exception).

If they held to Das Wesentliche, I’d like to see the M10-P continued, but perhaps just doing only what it does a bit better (all covered elsewhere).  

Edited by IkarusJohn
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Patrickfoley@mac.com

Patrickfoley@mac.com

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On 9/22/2023 at 11:32 AM, jaapv said:

I would suggest that it has nothing to do with QC but with staffing and supply chain problems with the repair department.

Having had problems with both my M11 and M11 monochrom, and having seen the very large number of other reports of M11 problems, I do believe Leica have some QC issues. I would love to be wrong, given my investment in this camera, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming. 

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IkarusJohn

IkarusJohn

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14 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I don’t think it is QC, I think  it is the near-impossible task of shoehorning present day technology into a 1954 camera. 

Was it Moore’s law?  We’ve come to believe everything is eventually possible as technology moves on?

Just because something is possible, doesn’t mean we should do it.

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frankchn

frankchn

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jaapv said:

I don’t think it is QC, I think  it is the near-impossible task of shoehorning present day technology into a 1954 camera. 

But is it impossible though? Sony recently launched the a7CR, which is the same sensor (- RF, + AF, + EVF, + IBIS) in a similar volumetric package compared to the M11.

To be fair, Sony is a much larger company with many more resources, but that camera is also 1/3 the cost of an M11.

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jaapv

jaapv

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Which is not the same. The camera is designed around the technology, with an M one has to fit everything inside a body  purely designed for mechanics. It is not just the volume, it is also things like heat management.

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charlesphoto99

charlesphoto99

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6 hours ago, jaapv said:

If Leica were not resistant to change, they would not be the survivor they are. 

I'm married to a woman from Dusseldorf so I know all about this, lol. On the one hand it's great because of the stability, on the other it can be incredibly frustrating when it comes to being flexible as the occasion arises. 

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frankchn

frankchn

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3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Which is not the same. The camera is designed around the technology, with an M one has to fit everything inside a body  purely designed for mechanics. It is not just the volume, it is also things like heat management.

Maybe, but I really don't think heat management is an issue since the M11 already doesn't shoot any video, and that is where heat issues in DSLR/MILC cameras come from. In fact, they put 8K video into an even smaller body (Q3) so it is probably fine (of course the Q3 has Maestro IV instead of III).

In any case, I really don't think packaging in general is an issue, because if you look at modern smartphones, they are packing a lot more processing power into something much smaller than any MILC in the market.

To be fair, I think the reality is that Leica is a small company in the world of electronics giants. Even if we are paying premium prices for Leica cameras, we have to accept the fact that Leica will not be on the cutting edge of any electronics technology because even though the individual margins on Leicas might be great, they are sold in comparatively such small volumes that Leica can't afford to use the latest and greatest and will have to make compromises where it can to survive.

(As an aside, I bet that even the size of the group at Apple that works on iPhone camera optics is larger than Peter Karbe's optics group at Leica).

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jaapv

jaapv

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Leica works together with a number of giants in this field.  They are firmly embedded in the German high tech industrial complex. They also have a very extensive cooperation with Panasonic. Your image of a small group of goblins is no more than a myth. Leica concentrates on the opto-mechanical part,  the user interface and the overall design. The conductor of the orchestra does not need to know how to play the bassoon.

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frankchn

frankchn

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Leica works together with a number of giants in this field.  They are firmly embedded in the German high tech industrial complex. They also have a very extensive cooperation with Panasonic. Your image of a small group of goblins is no more than a myth. Leica concentrates on the opto-mechanical part,  the user interface and the overall design. The conductor of the orchestra does not need to know how to play the bassoon.

Compared to the giants, they are a very small group (~1800 employees across all functions) and with that comes inefficiencies (i.e. components are going to cost more) and the lack of access to the best technologies (e.g. Sony might not want to sell you the A1's stacked BSI sensor at a reasonable price). Even their partner Panasonic is very small in the world of interchangeable lens cameras compared to the likes of Canon and Sony.

Leica announced 450 million EUR in revenue last year. Even if we assume every last euro was for the M11, that is less than a hundred thousand cameras. Canon shipped a million+ MILC/DSLR cameras in the same period.

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jeri

jeri

Posted
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8 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I'm married to a woman from Dusseldorf so I know all about this, lol. On the one hand it's great because of the stability, on the other it can be incredibly frustrating when it comes to being flexible as the occasion arises. 

You can only blame yourself. Wetzler's women are completely different... ;)

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patashnik

patashnik

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Wow, trying to catch up here! Thanks for all the replies. 

This was actually a first for me. I have been through every major digital iteration from Leica, and they have worked, well, eh, flawless-ish (if that is a word?). I'm looking at you, "UV-IR M8" and "Corrosive sensor M9". But this was my first experience if we're talking about actual malfunctions. If anything, it may have confirmed my belief that the M240 actually was a rather good camera. Mine is still ticking.

Long story, short answer: The dealer handled this perfectly. I received a new camera. 

 

 

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WvE

WvE

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On 9/25/2023 at 10:17 PM, jaapv said:

Which is not the same. The camera is designed around the technology, with an M one has to fit everything inside a body  purely designed for mechanics. It is not just the volume, it is also things like heat management.

That's exactly the reason why Leica should perhaps develop future M's to "das Wesentliche", instead of loading it with more and more tech. Just a simple, hard-core but outstanding tool for basic photography, with no frills other than a truly wonderful 24 MP sensor (CCD-like). Leave the high-tech stuff and mega MPs to the SL system. However, I know that's not going to happen... 

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WvE

WvE

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

They have to sell them and not just  to hard-core M users. 

Yes, that's the "unfortunate" truth, they would go bankrupt very quickly 🙂

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jaapv

jaapv

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38 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

If the M drifts into tech competition with Sony and the like, it’s finished.  There’s nothing das wesentliche about the M11 …

As long as they keep the retro connection like the rangefinder and minimalist design they’ll be fine. 

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