Go from M8 to M9?..

[Dopaco]

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Hello everyone, I need help deciding.

It turns out that I have a Leica M8, the one seen in the photo, I bought it used, and well cared for, at a fairly affordable price. (Now I see the higher prices). I used it with great enthusiasm, until I bought the Leica TL2, because it is newer and lighter and now it is the one I use the most.

The M8 works great, but it's not FF and it's only 10 MP.
I was planning to buy an M9 which is FF and 18 MP. Although I also notice that the prices have gone up.

I print very few photos and when I do most of them are 30 x 40 cm and exceptionally 70 x 50 cm.

What do you advise me?

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[farnz]

I still have and use an M8 but I did earlier trade my M8 for an M9-P.  The difference without the M8's crop factor was astonishing and it felt that I had 'room to breathe' particularly when using wide angle lenses on my M9-P.

The problem you're going to face is finding an M9 that doesn't have the common sensor corrosion problem.  Leica replaced M9 sensors for free when the problem was first detected but Leica no longer has any (Kodak KAF18500) sensors left and Kodak doesn't make them anymore so Leica's replacement program was ended.

If your reasons for thinking about changing cameras are full-frame and more MP then Leica's other full-frame cameras such as the M240, M10, or M11 might be the answer. 

But if you want to stay with a CCD sensor rather than start to shoot with a CMOS sensor then I think the M9 is your only choice.

Pete.

[Huss]

Out of the frying pan into the fire!

Skip the M9.  The M240 is rock solid and so much more pleasant to use, as well as having higher rez.

[rtai]

I would get an M10. While the M9 with its CCD sensor has “better” colors which is subjective the M10 has many advantages including way higher iso performance and more responsive shutter and this is a fact not subjective. 

[dpitt]

I still have an M8 and an M9. My M9 joined my M8 end of 2015 and I am still very happy with it. In a lot of ways, the M9 feels like a matured version of the M8.
In 2015, the M9 was the best upgrade possible for the M8 and I think even today you would not regret it. For me the main advantages of the M9 are:

1. It is full frame.
   Even it it was only 10MP like the M8, that would make it a better camera to me. All the M lenses work as intended. 50mm on the M8 feels much to narrow for me. I loved the 40mm Summicron C on the M8, but now I love the way my 50mm M collection works on the M9. I do still use the Summicron 40 C on the M9, because on the M9, a 35mm feels a bit too wide for my personal taste.
2. The M8 is really like a cropped M9
   It is very hard to see the difference between a shot cropped to 10MP from an M9 compared to what the M8 gives you with the same lens (both preferably with the UV/IR filter of course). The M9 has a slight advantage in image noise, and the M8 feels a bit sharper and better in B&W. This makes I now always use the M8 with longer lenses, and the M9 with a wider lens. The other way around makes no sense to me. The M8 gives extra reach this way. Trying to go wider on the M8 only requires larger and more expensive lenses compared to the M9. (40mm on M9 and 90mm on M8 is my perfect pair of Ms)

Having said that, I am not sure what I would buy today:

1. I am lucky that my M9 has a new and corrosion free sensor, upgraded for free by Leica in 2016. Those are harder to find and more expensive today. Any M9 with original sensor will have limited life left IMO and should be priced and used accordingly. It will expire on you soon and then becomes a useless brick. The process may go slow, so that you can use it for a while with lenses wide open, but in the end, you either need to take a risky repair operation from a third party (€1000) or you use it for parts. I say risky because sometimes the repair will fail and break the sensor completely. They give your money back, but that is all.
2. The same money you will spend on a good M9 will buy you a M240 in good condition and maybe the best part of an M10 in user condition. Both will provide live view and possibility of EVF + other advantages like more MP and higher ISO. 24 MP of M range quality are more than you probably need, but nice to have. If you like the TL2 colors, none of the CCD vs CMOS sensor issues will be an issue for you. I also have a TL2 since a few months, but for me the weight difference with the M9 does not really outweigh the advantage in compactness in both lens and body that you get with the M9. Try fitting the M8 with lens in a small bag (like a 35mm Summicron) and then do the same with a TL2 with the same lens + adapter and EVF mounted. You will see what I mean. And if you need to use any of the TL lenses, you are in even more trouble. Of course the TL2 brings lots of features none of the affordable Ms have, like 1/40.000 shutter, useble ISO 25000 and 4Kvideo...
   It is a great addition to an M, but it is NOT a RANGEFINDER. Any digital M will provide that critical advantage, which is very important to me. If you buy the Mx as upgrade for the M8, be sure you do it to use it as a rangefinder, not as a compact EVF + Body. If you do not want to use the EVF at all, you will be very happy with the M9. If you see the EVF as a bonus, the M240 and up make more sense today compared to the M9.

Just my 2 cents...

[Dopaco]

Thank you all for the prompt responses.

I have been looking at photos taken with M8 and M9 and with the naked eye and the size that is uploaded to the forum I do not find big differences.

I will continue to see larger photos on Flickr and differences when transferred to 12" x 16" and 20" x 28" paper.

Corrosion of the M9 sensor worries me about that risk.

Greetings.

[farnz]

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2 hours ago, Dopaco said:

I have been looking at photos taken with M8 and M9 and with the naked eye and the size that is uploaded to the forum I do not find big differences.

There shouldn't be much difference because they both have sensors from the same 'family' although the M9's sensor is a little larger of course.

M8: Kodak KAF10500

M9: Kodak KAF18500.

Pete.

[Jeff S]

I don’t know about European dealers, but a good US dealer like Leica Miami will not sell any M9-based camera without a proper sensor replacement and service from Leica.  I bought a mint M(9) Monochrom from Miami in 2017, with new sensor and warranty, still going strong. But the M10 Monochrom, which I also own is a far better camera in terms of viewing, handling, quiet operations, performance and robust build quality. Same with my M10-R.  
 

I would personally look for a clean M10-based camera from a reputable dealer with warranty and return policy.  But that reflects my priorities and goals, which includes regular printing, albeit modest sizes.  For online viewing, a camera phone is generally sufficient IQ-wise.

Jeff

Edited July 11, 2023 by Jeff S

[Huss]

7 hours ago, Dopaco said:

Corrosion of the M9 sensor worries me about that risk.

 

Every M9 that I’ve seen with the original sensor has corroded.  If the sensor has not been replaced with the newest version, it will corrode.

[Huss]

21 hours ago, Dopaco said:

Hello everyone, I need help deciding.

It turns out that I have a Leica M8, the one seen in the photo, I bought it used, and well cared for, at a fairly affordable price. (Now I see the higher prices). I used it with great enthusiasm, until I bought the Leica TL2, because it is newer and lighter and now it is the one I use the most.

The M8 works great, but it's not FF and it's only 10 MP.
I was planning to buy an M9 which is FF and 18 MP. Although I also notice that the prices have gone up.

I print very few photos and when I do most of them are 30 x 40 cm and exceptionally 70 x 50 cm.

What do you advise me?

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Did you change the colour grading or is that what the camera did - cyan and yellow green?

[Dopaco]

8 hours ago, Huss said:

Did you change the colour grading or is that what the camera did - cyan and yellow green?

Some photos when I edit them with photoshop I usually apply the Color Efex 4 Filter and it gives me those colors.

[Ko.Fe.]

I purchased M8 for curiosity around 2017 after getting M-E 220 in 2016.

Images from M8 looks bit more sharp comparing M9 sensor. Dynamic range looks bit less on M8. Even 1.33 crop factor wasn't big deal. And identical ISO entire range performance (if you know how to handle higher ISO).

I have sold M8, because it was not so much different from M-E 220.  I didn't find anything special about M8 BW and IR is not my thing. 

Silver M8 I had was closest digital M to classic film M. It has same solid feel as M3 ELC DS I had around same time. Newer cameras don't have this feel, IMO.

[Dopaco]

7 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

 

Thank you very much for your comments.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Dopaco

[Dopaco]

7 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I purchased M8 for curiosity around 2017 after getting M-E 220 in 2016.

Images from M8 looks bit more sharp comparing M9 sensor. Dynamic range looks bit less on M8. Even 1.33 crop factor wasn't big deal. And identical ISO entire range performance (if you know how to handle higher ISO).

I have sold M8, because it was not so much different from M-E 220.  I didn't find anything special about M8 BW and IR is not my thing. 

Silver M8 I had was closest digital M to classic film M. It has same solid feel as M3 ELC DS I had around same time. Newer cameras don't have this feel, IMO.

Thank you very much for your comments.

[irenedp]

Dopaco,  I’ve never used an M8 but 10 MP seems too little to get decent prints at A2. I use an M9P, with pretty decent results. You can always use the Lightroom super resolution or Topaz Gigapixel to get to large sizes in the images you want to print big. 

I use, paired with the M9, an M10r, and although that one has 40 MP, still to get to A0 (90 cm height) you would have to print at 140 ppi. That is possible, but rather below the advisable print resolution. So unless you use larger resolution cameras, like the S3 or the Fuji GFX etc you will always have size issues. 

The M9 has great color, almost duplicates the resolution of the 8, and one with the sensor changed by Leica will have had a full review and adjustment. My advise would be to go for it. 

Un saludo cordial 

[Ernstk]

If you really want to retain a CCD sensor, you could buy an M9 with a corroded sensor (at a low price) then have the sensor repaired.

Leica M9 Sensor Corrosion Repair – Kolari Vision

Ernst

[Harvey]

Do what I did. Keep the M8 and spend the real money on lenses. Better investment both from a monetary and results point of view. 

[Dopaco]

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Do what I did. Keep the M8 and spend the real money on lenses. Better investment both from a monetary and results point of view. 

I think that's what I'm going to do, unless I find something at a good price.

I have had several cameras, some I have given to the family and others I have sold. I bought the M8 because I wanted to test telemetry cameras, at first it was my toy, until I bought the Leica TL2 and right now the TL2 is my most used camera.

Today I have practiced a bit with the Leica M8 taking photos with my Leica TL2, with the super light 18mm f2.8.

   The photos I have cropped and edited with Photoshop.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Dopaco]

Without Visoflex it is lighter.

 

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Edited July 14, 2023 by Dopaco

[Harvey]

“ The M8 is... well, different.  It is a nearly-perfect digital execution of a fairly straightforward 35mm camera.  If you typically devote more than a few seconds to each picture, you will really like it.  It has everything you need and little that you do not.  If you're worried that it "only" does three frames a second, you should look elsewhere.”

nicely summarised 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Harvey