Leica SL (TYP-601): Noise DNG vs Jpeg: can you help me solve the problem, please?

[Shepherdphotographer]

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Good afternoon, I have been the happy owner of a SL (TYP-601) for a few months, I have been using it with Leica R lenses and I am very satisfied: before I used these lenses on a Nikon D810 and the Leica SL has brought out even more the magic of my Leica R lenses By now I have also become familiar with the controls and gained confidence with the camera, which I use with ease, even if the impact of the transition from the Nikon reflex system to the Leica mirrorless was tremendous ...... Shooting in color DNG and I forced to shoot in Jpeg for B/W photos, because the SL does not allow you to shoot in DNG in B/W. Patience for this....... However I have a problem with color shots, in DNG: shooting from 200 ISO upwards, in low light conditions, even if the exposure is spot on, the noise is very evident: I also compared shots taken of the same subject, in the same light conditions, with the same lens, same position, first with my old Nikon D810, then with the Leica SL, both at 200, 400 and 800 ISO : the difference in noise is enormous: already at 200 ISO it is a lot and the difference increases as the ISO increases!!!!! How is it possible??!!! Yet the D810 has 36 Megapixels and the SL 24 Megapixels, so the noise should be greater in the D810 (at ISO 400 it is almost invisible in the D810, while in the SL it is evident!!!)!!!!!! I changed the lens: same result, obviously....... Then I did another test: a shot at 400 ISO and 800 ISO only with the SL, but both in DNG and in Jpeg (DNG+Jpeg) and the noise in the jpeg is absent !!!!!!!! However the detail, the difference in sharpness, even if only once converted, the file, without processing with Lightroom, between jpeg and tiff, is very, considerable. The SL allows you to apply noise reduction only to Jpeg files (and I applied it, set, in the comparison shot I just talked about between DNG and Jpeg): how can I remove the noise reduction from DNG files? Mandatory via the software (Lightroom)? I almost always shoot at 50 ISO, maximum 100, as I often shoot with aperture wide open or almost and when I use aperture closed, I use a tripod, but sometimes it can happen to me to shoot at 400 ISO freehand and honestly it bothers me a lot that a camera, Leica, moreover, suffers from this noise problem with RAW files. Even with the Nikon D810 I shot with the RAW file (Nikon NEF), but up to 640 ISO not even the shadow of noise!!!! I think the difference is due to the different sensor between the Nikon D810 and the Leica SL: can you confirm it for me? The Leica one offers much nicer detail and colors, but a lot of noise. Now I ask you to advise me, please, how to solve this problem!!! Thanks everyone in advance!!

[frame-it]

the original SL is noisy at iso 400 and higher [when comparing to files at ISO 50 or 100]

lightroom noise reduction is good if you know how to set it properly, otherwise there are many other software's that allow great noise reduction.

Edited June 29, 2023 by frame-it

[Shepherdphotographer]

I tried to remove the noise with Adobe Photoshop and then I compared the two files, the original one and the one with the noise removed (reduced), but the difference in sharpness is remarkable ......

[Shepherdphotographer]

I will try to compare the dng file with the noise corrected in Adobe Photoshop and the jpeg with the noise reduction turned on on SL and set to a low level.  Is the "low" noise reduction value for jpeg files okay in your opinion?

Edited June 29, 2023 by Shepherdphotographer

[jaapv]

Photoshop has been upgraded. Noise reduction in ACR is AI now. Spectacularly good. And no “watercolors” effect any more. 
Nikon does apply noise reduction to its raw files, Leica does not. That can only be done in postprocessing. Up to now DXO had the best results, closely followed by Topaz Denoise. The latest versions of ACR/lLightroom are now as good as DXO. If you use the Topaz Photo AI plug-in your image will show a second increase in quality. 

[Shepherdphotographer]

Thank you Frame-it

 

[Shepherdphotographer]

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Thank you, jaapv, I'll try Topaz!!

[jaapv]

Even  if you only incorporate a Topaz Photo AI plug-in early in your workflow you’ll notice a marked improvement. 

[Shepherdphotographer]

@jaapv 

My version of Lightroom maybe too old, if it is a plug-in, but I'll try....... I've found Dfine.....

[jaapv]

Any version of Lightroom that is more than a few years old is obsolete. Over the last two or three years major parts have been reworked with a significant improvement in image quality and very practical new tools have been added, resulting in shorter editing time and more precise editing. The same for Photoshop. I am redoing important older photographs with very satisfactory results. 

[Shepherdphotographer]

Thanks for you precious contribute!

[Photoworks]

8 hours ago, Shepherdphotographer said:

I tried to remove the noise with Adobe Photoshop and then I compared the two files, the original one and the one with the noise removed (reduced), but the difference in sharpness is remarkable ......

You don't want to remove noise once the file has already been processed. you would have to open DNG in photoshop and I will open camera raw with the same tools of lightroom.

It just was not clear from your text if you opened DNJ or a tiff.

If you are familiar with Lightroom and like to try DxO PrureRaw 3, it works as a plugin too. It has the most natural retention of texture in my opinion.

[Shepherdphotographer]

@Photoworks:

Before I usually opened my DNG with Lightroom, because my version of Photoshop is too old to open DNG, I made a light postproduction and than I converted in tiff; then I made final postproduction with Photoshop. By today in the afternoon, after hundreds of attempts, I found a setting of noise reduction with Lightroom which allow to me to obtain a file with much less noise and much sharper than the original DNG and than the jpeg corrected in camera automatically with low and medium levels. So I can work the DNG in the best way, without working with a tiff file. I searched this system also because my version of Photoshop is too older.

 

[Shepherdphotographer]

I will use this setting with Lightroom, saved as preset, (I would use it as first preset), only for my rare shoots art ISO 400 or more (when I haven't my tripod with me).

[mpw]

Just curious what do mean by 'noise on the .dng file? I have the CL which should be the same quality as the SL minus Full-frame and get no 'noise. I shoot a lot at ISO 100 and 200....

[Shepherdphotographer]

@ mpw:

Noise is the same of grain for film, you know it..... I've seen noise at 400 ISO, not lower......., however 90% of my shoots are at 50 ISO, with tripod...... I noticed the noise accidentally.

[jaapv]

14 hours ago, Shepherdphotographer said:

@Photoworks:

Before I usually opened my DNG with Lightroom, because my version of Photoshop is too old to open DNG, I made a light postproduction and than I converted in tiff; then I made final postproduction with Photoshop. By today in the afternoon, after hundreds of attempts, I found a setting of noise reduction with Lightroom which allow to me to obtain a file with much less noise and much sharper than the original DNG and than the jpeg corrected in camera automatically with low and medium levels. So I can work the DNG in the best way, without working with a tiff file. I searched this system also because my version of Photoshop is too older.

 

Good to see that you found an improvement. You are never working on a DNG. That is a digital negative and not an image file. Lightroom makes virtual adjustments and only applies those to the DNG conversion on export. Photoshop converts the file at the very start in ACR. I suspect that you are seeing the low quality embedded jpg in Photoshop. 

[jdlaing]

On 6/30/2023 at 7:24 AM, jaapv said:

Good to see that you found an improvement. You are never working on a DNG. That is a digital negative and not an image file. Lightroom makes virtual adjustments and only applies those to the DNG conversion on export. Photoshop converts the file at the very start in ACR. I suspect that you are seeing the low quality embedded jpg in Photoshop. 

I think a .dng is most definitely an image file and can be worked in post processing software. When I open a .dng in Capture One I work on it and then I can choose what version I want to save it such as jpeg, tiff etc. .dng is simply another supposedly uncompressed photo format.

[jaapv]

Sorry, no. It is a storage format. You always have to extract the contained files like for instance TIFF 6.0 or any other raw format before you can edit them. 

 

https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/file-types/image/raw/dng-file.html

It is only called in image file because it contains images. 

You can only use the DNG file in Photoshop after it has been converted in ACR. In Lightroom you make virtual edits which are only implemented when you export and at that point convert the DNG (that is why LR is a non-destructive editor) I don't know what system C1 uses, but I suspect it works on the extracted TIFF. TiFF files can be saved in nearly all image formats.

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[Shepherdphotographer]

The DNG file is a digital negative of the image (Digital Negative Format).  You can work, normally and effectively, as you want the DNG file, which, being a RAW, is more malleable and tolerant to changes (such as those concerning exposure) and, unlike jpegs, you do not lose quality every time make changes.  After making all the changes you want, you can convert it (to tiff, jpeg...), obtaining a real image file.  This applies to all RAW.