The SL2 is all the camera you need ...

[goodbokeh]

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7 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

It can happen with non-PDAF cameras too. I could reproduce the issue with a Q2. Other users had the same problem too

 

The thread goes on to discuss that removing the Bayer filter (not PDAF pixels) was the likely culprit. Valuable for me in that gives me a heads up to watch for with my M10M. I would be interested in you showing an example of grid flare with your Q2 though. I've used my Q2 in some tough backlighting and haven't seen it (yet).

Edited July 29, 2023 by goodbokeh
Typo

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[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, goodbokeh said:

I would be interested in you showing an example of grid flare with your Q2 though. I've used my Q2 in some tough backlighting and haven't seen it (yet).

Unfortunately I don’t have that shot anymore. I sold my Q2 a couple of years ago, and I didn’t keep that ruined shot. 

[goodbokeh]

3 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Unfortunately I don’t have that shot anymore. I sold my Q2 a couple of years ago, and I didn’t keep that ruined shot. 

Well, my point Simone is PDAF grid flare is a real and distinct issue that I have experienced many times. I have shown an example , I can show more. You can easily read discussions about it via Google. I have not said it is impossible to not have grid flare with CDAF sensors. But my experience is it is (at least) much less likely.

I have two cameras within the same Sony sensor family as the upcoming SL3, the Fuji 100S and the Sony A7R5. They both produce sensor flare fairly easily in the right backlit circumstances. Maybe the wonderful SL APO Summicrons will allow the SL3 to escape or minimize this problem, who knows other than Leica at this point. But to be forewarned is to be forearmed. 

[jaapv]

As to this sensor flare - it is extremely unlikely that this is an PDAF grid issue, as it has been discussed regularly on the M forum over the years.

[hdmesa]

46 minutes ago, jaapv said:

As to this sensor flare - it is extremely unlikely that this is an PDAF grid issue, as it has been discussed regularly on the M forum over the years.

Yes this ^

It's not PDAF at fault for the sensor grid reflections. CDAF cameras such as the original GFX 50S and Q2 have the issue. And there is no difference between how easy it is to provoke with CDAF versus PDAF sensors. The biggest culprit/cause is lenses that have the rear element very close to the sensor (nearly all Fujifilm GF lenses, the fixed-lens Q2, etc.).

Edited July 29, 2023 by hdmesa

[jaapv]

25 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

The biggest culprit/cause is lenses that have the rear element very close to the sensor

Which is the reason that manual focus M cameras have the issue,

[goodbokeh]

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You know it's difficult to evaluate posts that are generalizations or based upon photo chat hearsay. I try to provide posts based upon what I have experienced with my own equipment and/or have read from sources that I have confidence in.

On the topic of PDAF pixel grid flare, below is an opposite example of my earlier posted 100S grid flare photo. A very strong backlit photo I took with my M10-R & 18mm Super Elmar last January at Joshua Tree NP, located in the Mojave desert. The M10-R doesn't have PDAF pixels and the 18mm is very close to the sensor. I had no grid flare with that camera on that trip. I also used a 50mm Summilux ASPH.

Again, I'm not saying grid flare is impossible with a CDAF or M sensor. But I think it is much less likely than with the Sony sensors that my two cameras and the future SL3 will have.

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[jaapv]

Yes  but the 18 is a telecentric modern lens that does not easily produce such flare  The distance of the exit pupil to the sensor is the determining factor plus the aperture.
There are plenty of examples on the M forums ( read back ) of red dot flare. Nothing hearsay about it.
It was known long before PDAF was invented. 
 

https://photographylife.com/red-dot-flare-issue

[goodbokeh]

59 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Yes  but the 18 is a telecentric modern lens that does not easily produce such flare  The distance of the exit pupil to the sensor is the determining factor plus the aperture.
There are plenty of examples on the M forums ( read back ) of red dot flare. Notice hearsay about it.
It was known long before PDAF was invented. 
 

https://photographylife.com/red-dot-flare-issue

Thanks for the link jaapv. Yes, lens choice appears an important variable also. 

[jaapv]

Disregards the Internet pundits who don’t really know what they are talking about. 😉

[hdmesa]

10 hours ago, jaapv said:

Yes  but the 18 is a telecentric modern lens that does not easily produce such flare  The distance of the exit pupil to the sensor is the determining factor plus the aperture.
There are plenty of examples on the M forums ( read back ) of red dot flare. Nothing hearsay about it.
It was known long before PDAF was invented. 
 

https://photographylife.com/red-dot-flare-issue

👍 This was really frustrating for me when I got into the Canon R system a few years back. The new and supposedly better RF lenses often provoke these sensor reflections when trying to stop down to produce sunstars while adapted EF or other SLR/DSLR-era lenses were immune to the issue.

Edited July 30, 2023 by hdmesa

[jaapv]

The only thing you can do to try and avoid them is to put the sun in the middle. of the composition, like Goodbokeh did in his example. 

[BernardC]

18 hours ago, goodbokeh said:

I have two cameras within the same Sony sensor family as the upcoming SL3, the Fuji 100S and the Sony A7R5.

Do we know for sure that they will use the A7r5 sensor? It's quite old now, and it doesn't test as well as the current SL2 sensor.

[goodbokeh]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

The only thing you can do to try and avoid them is to put the sun in the middle. of the composition, like Goodbokeh did in his example. 

Unfortunately, my sensor grid reflections will pop up in various sun positions, including in the central area like in post # 116.

Edited July 30, 2023 by goodbokeh
Typo

[goodbokeh]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

Do we know for sure that they will use the A7r5 sensor? It's quite old now, and it doesn't test as well as the current SL2 sensor.

Bernard, I don't know for sure what sensor the SL3 will use, I just follow the rumors sites and forums. But the Sony 60MP PDAF sensor is what is used in the Q3, with a different sensor stack of course. And maybe a different sensor stack for the SL3 will offer a different sensor flare dynamic also. Time will tell...

For so many years and models I used to think Panasonic-Lumix was stubborn and full of hubris by sticking with CDAF-DFD instead of using PDAF. Their reasoning (in part) being supposed PDAF image quality compromises. Well, market forces have finally bent Panasonic's knee and PDAF is here for Lumix and in turn Leica. My 100S and A7R5 are fine cameras but PDAF sensor flare is a worry in my mind whenever the Sun is not at my back. My work-around is to carefully chimp (right then) in the viewfinder with magnification.

 

[jaapv]

4 hours ago, BernardC said:

Do we know for sure that they will use the A7r5 sensor? It's quite old now, and it doesn't test as well as the current SL2 sensor.

We know for sure that the filter stack which is the part of the sensor that may cause flare problems will be unique to Leica. As the filter stack has nothing to do with the AF system of any sensor, the presence or absence of PDAF makes no difference at all.  The differences in flare behaviour between cameras is solely due to the choices the camera maker made when specifying the filters. 

[hdmesa]

5 hours ago, BernardC said:

Do we know for sure that they will use the A7r5 sensor? It's quite old now, and it doesn't test as well as the current SL2 sensor.

Doesn’t test as well? Blame Sony then. Take a look at the tests of the M11 sensor to see what a difference it makes when the sensor is customized to spec by the customer (Leica).

But to your point, many of us would have preferred the 50mp stacked sensor from the A1, but perhaps Sony doesn’t offer their best sensors to third parties until it’s second generation tech.

Edited July 30, 2023 by hdmesa

[jaapv]

Not really historically Sony-sensored Nikons have outperformed the equivalent Sony cameras 

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[BernardC]

All I can say is that I would be disappointed if the SL3 used a sensor that is as-old-as the current 47MP sensor, doesn't perform as well (according to some online testing sites), and isn't well-suited to video. I know the fp-l uses that sensor, and it's a video camera, but it has disappointing readout times at most crop factors. That's OK for very advanced users; Sigma has a chart showing which crop factors to use if you want to minimize rolling shutter. It's not a great compromise for everyone else. Do you remember the terrible reviews that the fp-l received from influencer-vloggers? They just couldn't get their mind around it. I'm sure that Leica doesn't want that kind of PR for their next flagship mirrorless.

Also, every SL has used a new sensor that outperformed the competition, so it would be a shame if that wasn't the case for the SL3.

Of course, there's always a possibility that Sony Micro has improved that sensor, but why would Sony's consumer electronics division release a new A7r this year using the old 60MP? It's not a do-or-die camera for them, they would have waited a few months if there was something better on the way.

Disclaimer: I am just speculating. I have no way of knowing what Leica has in store for us.

[LocalHero1953]

40 minutes ago, BernardC said:

All I can say is that I would be disappointed if the SL3 used a sensor that is as-old-as the current 47MP sensor, doesn't perform as well (according to some online testing sites), and isn't well-suited to video.

................

Also, every SL has used a new sensor that outperformed the competition, so it would be a shame if that wasn't the case for the SL3.

I agree. I have totally baseless hopes that the reason the SL3 is likely to be released later next year and not this is that Leica is waiting for a next-gen sensor to startle us all. A slow read-out sensor with high ISO performance no better than the SL2-S would be disappointing.