100 years Null-Serie

[beoon]

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On 7/13/2023 at 7:09 AM, Roland Zwiers said:
One of these was delivered to Curt Emmermann in early February 1925.

Editor Willy Frerk received his Leica Nr. 211 on 4 March, probably for the purpose of his review of 31 March 1925.
In that sense even this early March 1925 Leica can still be regarded as a test camera!

When people like Professor Dr W Scheffer (7/3/25) and Professor Dr W Gurtler (21/3/25) have such early testimonials as well, 
then one must assume that they received their Leicas at about the same time as Curt Emmermann,  Willy Frerk, Dr Paul Wolff and Prof Muesmann.

But why have I not been able to find them in the delivery book 'Kamera'?

One plausible explanation is that so far I have only seen a few pages of this delivery book.
On our visit to the leitz archive I hope to see more.

Another possible explanation is that they received the cameras via Ernst Leitz himself;
 

 

Roland,

Here is a few small extracts from the book "The source of todays 35mm photography" by Emil G Keller (1989).

Emil Kellers father worked at Leitz in the early 1900's, he was head of a department making Leitz microtomes.

Emil Keller himself was an apprentice at E. Leitz London in 1935/36 and was friends with Oscar Barnack's son, Konrad and Ludwig Leitz.

From 1936-1980 Emil Keller worked at E. Leitz inc.

He speaks about the initial 30 cameras 101-130 and states with regards to the Leitz agencies worldwide 

"These agencies received such a camera with the request to report their experiences and/or criticisms back to the home office to be evaluated by Mr Barnack himself. Unfortunately, these reports have not been preserved"

Regarding the cameras in early 1925, he states the following

"Emmermann must have used one of the 1925 versions of the Leica, at the request of Leitz, who sent it to him on loan"

On the 28th May 1987, Dr Ludwig Leitz (son of Ernst Leitz II) was celebrating his 80th birthday with a celebration at Haus Friedwart.

Emil Keller was in attendance at this celebration as he was a close friend of Dr Ludwig Leitz, he reports that Dr Leitz states

"My first encounter with the Leica was in 1914, when I was 7 years old, in other words 73 years ago.This was my first acquaintance with our Sorgenkind (problem child)"

I wonder what he meant with the phrase "Sorgenkind" (problem child)?

The book itself is a fantastic read for first hand information about the early days of the Leica, a recommended read for anyone interested .

Regards

Alan

 

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[Roland Zwiers]

William,

I really look forward to visiting the archive.
How precious that so many of you already know the way!

Roland

[Roland Zwiers]

2 hours ago, beoon said:

Roland,

Here is a few small extracts from the book "The source of todays 35mm photography" by Emil G Keller (1989).

Emil Kellers father worked at Leitz in the early 1900's, he was head of a department making Leitz microtomes.

Emil Keller himself was an apprentice at E. Leitz London in 1935/36 and was friends with Oscar Barnack's son, Konrad and Ludwig Leitz.

From 1936-1980 Emil Keller worked at E. Leitz inc.

He speaks about the initial 30 cameras 101-130 and states with regards to the Leitz agencies worldwide 

"These agencies received such a camera with the request to report their experiences and/or criticisms back to the home office to be evaluated by Mr Barnack himself. Unfortunately, these reports have not been preserved"

Regarding the cameras in early 1925, he states the following

"Emmermann must have used one of the 1925 versions of the Leica, at the request of Leitz, who sent it to him on loan"

On the 28th May 1987, Dr Ludwig Leitz (son of Ernst Leitz II) was celebrating his 80th birthday with a celebration at Haus Friedwart.

Emil Keller was in attendance at this celebration as he was a close friend of Dr Ludwig Leitz, he reports that Dr Leitz states

"My first encounter with the Leica was in 1914, when I was 7 years old, in other words 73 years ago.This was my first acquaintance with our Sorgenkind (problem child)"

I wonder what he meant with the phrase "Sorgenkind" (problem child)?

The book itself is a fantastic read for first hand information about the early days of the Leica, a recommended read for anyone interested .

Regards

Alan

 

Alan,

I do have an idea why Dr Leitz was looking back on 'our problem child'.
In another posting I give the reasons for assuming that Ernst Leitz I and II must have aimed at market introduction in 1915 already. 
At first (after August 1914) war stood in the way.
After the war Max Berek was released from military service and available for designing a better lens than the Mikro Summar.
But his first attempt (the 4-element Leitz Anastigmat) must have been unsuccesful. 
(This will be part of a separate posting on early Leica lenses; 1906-1926)

After this first unsuccesful attempt Max Berek had to design the 5-element Leitz Anastigmat.
[The 5-element design may or may not have been insprired by the revival of the Tessar patent in 1920.]
This lens must have been ready at the end of 1922 and had to be tested on the Null-Serie of 1923.
But in that year inflation in Germany was increasing very fast,  leading to a collapse in economic activity.

So it would last to March 1925 before the Leica could be introduced on the market. 
I can imagine that this 10 year delay must have been a worrysome experience for Ernst Leitz II.

 

Roland

 

 

 

After that 4-element Anastigmat 

 

[Roland Zwiers]

3 hours ago, beoon said:

Roland,

Here is a few small extracts from the book "The source of todays 35mm photography" by Emil G Keller (1989).

Emil Kellers father worked at Leitz in the early 1900's, he was head of a department making Leitz microtomes.

Emil Keller himself was an apprentice at E. Leitz London in 1935/36 and was friends with Oscar Barnack's son, Konrad and Ludwig Leitz.

From 1936-1980 Emil Keller worked at E. Leitz inc.

He speaks about the initial 30 cameras 101-130 and states with regards to the Leitz agencies worldwide 

"These agencies received such a camera with the request to report their experiences and/or criticisms back to the home office to be evaluated by Mr Barnack himself. Unfortunately, these reports have not been preserved"

Regarding the cameras in early 1925, he states the following

"Emmermann must have used one of the 1925 versions of the Leica, at the request of Leitz, who sent it to him on loan"

On the 28th May 1987, Dr Ludwig Leitz (son of Ernst Leitz II) was celebrating his 80th birthday with a celebration at Haus Friedwart.

Emil Keller was in attendance at this celebration as he was a close friend of Dr Ludwig Leitz, he reports that Dr Leitz states

"My first encounter with the Leica was in 1914, when I was 7 years old, in other words 73 years ago.This was my first acquaintance with our Sorgenkind (problem child)"

I wonder what he meant with the phrase "Sorgenkind" (problem child)?

The book itself is a fantastic read for first hand information about the early days of the Leica, a recommended read for anyone interested .

Regards

Alan

 

"Emmermann must have used one of the 1925 versions of the Leica, at the request of Leitz, who sent it to him on loan"

Curt Emmermann (1931) does not say he received the camera on loan.
He received the camera as a test camera (zur Begutachtung).

Interestingly, this confusion is mirrored in page 115 of Oskar Barnack's work notes.
In the column on the right he explicitely mentions "2 cameras on loan'.
So one must assume that the photographers that are included in this column received a loaner camera.
But many of these photographers are mentioned later in the delivery book 'Kamera' as well. 

The central column of page 115 has the names of photographers who received a Null-Serie camera.
But of course, these photographers were also asked to give their opinions.
The main difference was that thesephotographers were not expected to return their camera to Oskar Barnack.

Suppose that Curt Emmermann still received a loaner camera in early February 1925.
How should we classify this camera?

Roland
 

 

 

[FPangrazi]

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[beoon]

1 hour ago, FPangrazi said:

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Hello Fabrizio,

These testimonials are the same as the ones I posted earlier in this discussion.

Mine were from 'So urteilt man uber" Liste no 2275, May 1927 pages 25-27. Your photos look like they are from a different document as they are different page numbers.

Can you advise which brochure, liste number & date.

I had been speaking to you earlier this week on Facebook about Null series 116 which has an interesting history which involved your good friend Gianni Rogliatti.

A very brief summary about 116 is listed below, can you share any more detail please as that would enhance our knowledge?

• The December 1972 article in the Leica Historical Society (British society) shows 116 with a Galilean type finder
• In 1980 Gianni Rogliatti visits the Leica School in Wetzlar and mounted in a frame is 116 completely dismantled and mounted for demonstration purposes
• At some point after this visit Rogliatti  pursuades Leitz management to allow him to take 116 back to Italy to study and photograph it (date unknown)
• Rogliatti rebuilds 116 to working condition (date unknown )
• 1983 Rogliatti writes an article about 116 for La Leica Italian magazine
• Jim Lager shows this same camera in his Illustrated History Volume 1 page 12 (1993) fitted with the folding type finder and is described as being in the Leica museum (date of photo not specified) 

• Leica - The first 70 years book published by Gianni Rogliatti (English edition September 1995) page 40 shows 116 stripped completely down and all parts mounted on 9 panels.
• After the 1995 publication of the first 70 years book, Rogliatti is approached by someone who now owns 116 regarding parts missing?
• Rogliatti passed away March 2012
• May 2012, auction house Vienna, 116 is sold for a then world record price

Alan

[FPangrazi]

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1 hour ago, FPangrazi said:

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[derleicaman]

Welcome Fabrizio! Good to see you here.

I have given Jim Lager the link for this thread, as I think he needs to see this discussion. Jim may not chime in, as he is rather limited in his computer abilities. I hope he joins and makes some comments on this thread. I brought him up to date on our efforts here, and gave him an outline of what we are looking to do in Wetzlar in the Archive this fall.

Both Jim and I are giving presentations at the annual meeting. Jim will be speaking about the Archives and I will be talking about the LHSA Special Edition cameras and lenses I designed, from conception to execution, by Leica.

[FPangrazi]

13 minutes ago, derleicaman said:

Benvenuto Fabrizio! Bello vederti qui.

Ho dato a Jim Lager il link per questo thread, poiché penso che abbia bisogno di vedere questa discussione. Jim potrebbe non intervenire, poiché è piuttosto limitato nelle sue capacità informatiche. Spero che si unisca e faccia alcuni commenti su questo thread. L'ho aggiornato sui nostri sforzi qui e gli ho dato una panoramica di ciò che stiamo cercando di fare a Wetzlar nell'Archivio questo autunno.

Sia Jim che io faremo delle presentazioni all'incontro annuale. Jim parlerà degli Archivi e io parlerò delle fotocamere e degli obiettivi LHSA Special Edition che ho progettato, dall'ideazione all'esecuzione, da Leica.

Hi Bill, I hear from Jim periodically and it's always a joy to exchange information.  Regarding the discussion of this trend, I always forgot to ask Jim about the 116 that he published in his 1993 book. In the attached photograph you can't read the serial number.  I will ask him if he has a view that portrays the same camera from above.  In my opinion it is not the 116.

[derleicaman]

Fabrizio, will you be in Wetzlar for the LSI meeting?

[FPangrazi]

32 minutes ago, derleicaman said:

Fabrizio, sarai a Wetzlar per il meeting LSI?

I will be in Wetzlar on October 7th and can only stay for a few days ! .......But I'm seriously considering going back to join you!!

[FPangrazi]

19 hours ago, FPangrazi said:

Ciao Bill, ricevo periodicamente notizie da Jim ed è sempre una gioia scambiare informazioni. Per quanto riguarda la discussione di questa tendenza, ho sempre dimenticato di chiedere a Jim del 116 che ha pubblicato nel suo libro del 1993. Nella foto allegata non si legge il numero di serie. Gli chiederò se ha una visuale che ritrae la stessa macchina fotografica dall'alto. Secondo me non è il 116.

I join the photo of the n°119 photographed in Wetzlar in 1982. It is the same reproduced by Jim in his book, where for an exchange of images, it is mentioned as the N°116.

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[willeica]

On 7/14/2023 at 8:03 PM, beoon said:

Hello Fabrizio,

These testimonials are the same as the ones I posted earlier in this discussion.

Mine were from 'So urteilt man uber" Liste no 2275, May 1927 pages 25-27. Your photos look like they are from a different document as they are different page numbers.

Can you advise which brochure, liste number & date.

I had been speaking to you earlier this week on Facebook about Null series 116 which has an interesting history which involved your good friend Gianni Rogliatti.

A very brief summary about 116 is listed below, can you share any more detail please as that would enhance our knowledge?

• The December 1972 article in the Leica Historical Society (British society) shows 116 with a Galilean type finder
• In 1980 Gianni Rogliatti visits the Leica School in Wetzlar and mounted in a frame is 116 completely dismantled and mounted for demonstration purposes
• At some point after this visit Rogliatti  pursuades Leitz management to allow him to take 116 back to Italy to study and photograph it (date unknown)
• Rogliatti rebuilds 116 to working condition (date unknown )
• 1983 Rogliatti writes an article about 116 for La Leica Italian magazine
• Jim Lager shows this same camera in his Illustrated History Volume 1 page 12 (1993) fitted with the folding type finder and is described as being in the Leica museum (date of photo not specified) 

• Leica - The first 70 years book published by Gianni Rogliatti (English edition September 1995) page 40 shows 116 stripped completely down and all parts mounted on 9 panels.
• After the 1995 publication of the first 70 years book, Rogliatti is approached by someone who now owns 116 regarding parts missing?
• Rogliatti passed away March 2012
• May 2012, auction house Vienna, 116 is sold for a then world record price

Alan

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ThNo11

No 116 as sold by Leitz Auction in 2012 - pictures courtesy of Leitz Auction. It should be noted that the Galilean finder has cross hairs which were not found on the production I Model A models. I mentioned the existence of such a finder in my article on Macfilos about No 105. These details were confirmed with Jim Lager and Lars Netopil:

"There were three types of viewfinders associated with these early cameras,

a folding finder with a ‘cross-hair’

a tubular Galilean type with ‘cross-hair’,

as for 2 with no ‘cross-hair’."

https://www.macfilos.com/2022/04/26/oskar-one-zero-five-comes-in-loud-and-clear/

This finder is of the second type which did not appear on the production I Model A.

Bill and I are organising a visit to the archive in October by an 'expert group'. We will probably finalise this by email. We will also be putting together a list of what we need to see and the details need to be precise, so that the Leitz Park people can confirm whether or not they have the information.  As I mentioned earlier, some early documents were lost during WWII.

William 

 

[Roland Zwiers]

These last weekends I was doing an empirical project with a Leica IIIb, testing ortho- and panchromatic black-and-white films.
Knowlegde of the charisteristics of orthochromatic black-and-white films is relevant for understanding the comments of Leica users in the period 1923-1925.  

For the pictures I made use of a set-up that I also used for my article 'The colour of black-and-white' that is situated in 1914.
Black-and-white emulsions were originally only sensitive to the colours blue, violet and ultra-violet (in other words: colour blind).
The first major improvement was to add sensitivity to the colours green, yellow and (some) orange; this was called ortho-chromatic.
The next step was to add sensitivity to the coulour red as well: pan-chromatic.

As a rule the increased colour sensitivity of the emulsion had to be supported by a yellow filter;
without a yellow filter the increased sensitivity of the emulsion for yellow would not be evident.

Now in the picture below the colour picture is taken with digital means.
For the black-and-white pictures I used a Leica IIIb.
The upper right corner shows an orthochromatic film without a yellow filter.
The lower left corner has a panchromatic film without a yellow filter.
The lower right corner has the same panchromatic film with a 3x yellow filter.

One can say that the panchromatic film with a yellow filter gives a colour-correct (in German: tonrichtig) result.
Of course colour correct in the sense that natural colours are reproduced in grey-tones as our eyes would see it.
In that way the colour yellow has a much brighter greytone than the colours red and blue.

 
Now what is the relationship between this discussion and the test Leicas of 1923-1925?
The crucial point is that film technology was improving dramatically during this relatively short period of time.
In 1923 and early 1924 films were still weakly orthochromatic with a relatively course grain. 
The comments from Prof. Klute, Giessen (courtesy Alan) point in this direction.
Dr Paul Wolff's critical comments on the earliest Leica-films  ( 'it was a cross') have to refer to this period as well.

Alan and Fabrizio were so kind as to share other very early comments.
In several cases these are comments from 1925, which can be compared to the 1925 reviews in photo magazines.
Indiscriminately these 1925 comments show that postcard-size/ 9x14cm enlargements from a Leica negative cannot (or can hardly)
be distinguished from a same size contact print of a larger negative.
Many 1925 reviews state that much larger prints are possible.
One 1925 review shows a full-page Leica picture by Anton Baumann.
Several 1925 reviews either state or show that by then highly orthochromatic films are available.

This empirical evidence on the rapid progress of black-and-white 35mm films during 1923-1925 is very relevant for understanding the purpose of the test series Leicas in this period!
We know that in June 1924 Ernst Leitz II had to make the go/no-go decision for taking the Leica in production. 
In my hypothesis he could only decide in favour because he knew that by then technological bottlenecks relating to the quality 35mm film already had largely disappeared.
The first cine negative film that must have passed the grade was likely the Toxo-Kino-Film as produced by Nobel in Düren.
This film was used by Willy Frerk in possibly the first Leica review of March 1925.

Interestingly, Willy Frerk states that the Leica was sold with three pre-filled cartridges, that is filled with this Toxo-Kino-Film.
This means that the Toxo-Kino-Film may be regarded as the first Leica film.
['Leica' films used in 1914-1920 by Oskar Barnack and Ernst Leitz II require a separate discussion.]

The runner-up may well have been the Perutz Grünsiegelfilm. 
This film appeared after the introduction of the Leica (March 1925) and was used for a review of May 1, 1925.

The famous Perutz Spezial Fliegerfilm (aka Leica Spezialfilm) dates from late 1926 or early 1927.
This film combined very fine grain and high orthochromatism with excellent keeping qualities!
But by then we have already entered the era of regular series production.

Roland

  

 

  

 

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[nitroplait]

2 hours ago, Roland Zwiers said:

One can say that the panchromatic film with a yellow filter gives a colour-correct (in German: tonrichtig) result.
Of course colour correct in the sense that natural colours are reproduced in grey-tones as our eyes would see it.
In that way the colour yellow has a much brighter greytone than the colours red and blue.

If it was a given to use yellow filters at the time, then I do wonder why the lens is designed so inconvenient when it comes to utilising filters.

[Roland Zwiers]

The most inconvenient lens design for using a yellow filter must have been the 4,5/42 Summar.
This is the standard lens on the Ur-Leica of 1914.
But Oskar Barnack must have used a yellow filter on this lens as well, witness his orthochromatic work in the period 1914-1917 or so.

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The test cameras of 1923 ('Null-Serie') had a different solution for closing the lens while tensioning the shutter.
This greatly facilitated the use of push-on filters!

Of course, by modern standards a push-on filter is less convenient than a screw mount or a bajonet filter.
But one has to judge by the standards of the day.
The examples below are from the 1917 Lifa filter manual.

Roland

 

 

[nitroplait]

I wasn't really thinking push-on vs. screw vs bayonet - more about the obvious issue that aperture setting would be done behind the filter so the photographer would have to remove the filter every time a change was required - or are those filters for mounting on the inner rim?

[Roland Zwiers]

You are absolutely right that having to set the aperture setting behind a yellow filter is inconvenient as well!
But when working with a screw mount Leica one would preselect the aperture anyhow.

When there is sufficient light I often select f/8.
Next I select the hyperfocal distance that gives maximum depth of field up to infinity at that aperture.
With f/8 this is 7 meters; so when setting the lens at 7m, everything is in focus between 4m and infinity.
In this way I don't have to look through the rangefinder as long as the subject is more than 4m away.

When using a slow film in combination with a yellow filter I tend to have shutter speeds like 1/20, 1/30, 1/40, 1/60 or 1/100 of a second.
So it is very easy to chose an in between shutter speed when the exposure meter gives a slightly different reading.

Roland

 

 

 

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[Pyrogallol]

In the 1920’s and 30’s using a roll of film with 36 exposures would have been a new way of thinking, apart from the original Kodak Brownie. It is only in modern times that we have become used to taking a lot of pictures rapidly, with and without filters, using one lens then another, changing apertures. So taking a filter and lenshood off to change the aperture was not a great problem. Only press photographers would have been in a hurry to take another picture and they would not be likely to be using filters, just quickly changing plates. Filters would be useful for landscape photography, when you would likely be using a tripod and taking time to set the camera up, open shutter, open aperture fully to focus, close aperture down, close shutter down or put lenscap on, put film plate in place, make exposure, close shutter or lenscap and start again.

[Roland Zwiers]

I fully agree.
After the Leica of 1925 the Rolleiflex of 1929 became another standard bearer of the second miniature revolution.
The acceptance of the Rolleiflex by professionals was greatly facilitated once film transport became fully automatic.
That is to say; transporting the film automatically cocked the shutter for the next exposure.
In this way the photograopher could take a sequence of many pictures without having to think twice. 

Of course, the Rollei also benefitted from a much larger negative size.
In this respect the Leica had a competitive disadvantage.
Leica photography made much higher demands on the quality of films, exposure, development and enlarging. 
Photographers like Curt Emmermann, Dr Paul Wolff and Fritz Vith had to relearn the photographic trade all over again. 

Roland