Why meterless cameras are important to photography

[Vlad Soare]

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12 hours ago, kivis said:

I have an M-A, M3 and a Nikon F (no meter). Why I deem them so important? Because using them teaches how to set up your metering by feel (you will get better at this over time), It teaches you in the beginning to guess exposure but you will get better at this with time, too. I can look at the top of my camera before composing and set the aperture, Shutter speed and even the focus before I even compose. Then I bring the camera up to my eye to compose the shot. Mostly use a 35mm lens. A very pleasurable experience.

I take it you don't use slide film. I'd wager your results would be quite different. 😁
With B&W negatives, sure, as long as you're roughly in the ballpark you're OK. Depending, of course, on how much post-processing you're willing to do. I do have good darkroom skills, if I can say so myself. I am able to get at least an acceptable, if not downright good, print from any kind of negative as long as there's something on it. Give me a few hours and I will salvage any negative that stands even the tinest chance of being salvageable. But I would prefer not to. I would rather spend five minutes making a straight print from a good negative than five hours struggling to save a bad one. That's where a meter comes in handy.

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Vlad Soare

[LocalHero1953]

Contrariwise......I will happily shoot with a meterless camera, but I don't think it is important to photography (I do it because I enjoy using simple cameras - but that is personal pleasure, not photography). Of course it is important to understand that the limitations of film and digital sensors mean that they can never record what our brain thinks our eyes see (the deepest shadows to almost the brightest highlights, all in perfect focus), but I do not think one needs a meterless camera to learn that. As others have pointed out, it is just as important to know what your meter is actually measuring and how that relates to your subject's illumination, and the extremes of light in the scene. For just this reason I welcome the development of the histogram in the EVF that effectively eliminates the need for simplistic and misleading TTL metering modes.

(I write as one who shot meterless cameras for 15 years from the age of 10 before welcoming my first TTL body.)

 

 

[pgk]

Trying to guestimate exposure settings is complcated because the eye/brain system doesn't see things as cameras do. This is especially true in low light conditions. So there is a limit to human assessment of actual light levels which then has to be adjusted utilising experience. After over 40 tears of photography using a mix of metered and unmetered cameras I find I can guestimate exposure quite reasonably in good light levels, but even now I struggle in lower light. I do often pre-set exposure based on what I expect may be viable and then check with the internal meter to see how close I am; in bright light I'm often within a stop of an acceptable exposure and sometimes much closer. In poor light its more difficult and I can be well out. So you can use a camera without a meter but I expect that as light levels drop so will the number of viable (not 'correct' I hasten to add, as this is a complex concept) exposures.And in all honesty there is no need to have a meterless camera without a meter as there are plenty of handheld meters available used.

[Vlad Soare]

29 minutes ago, pgk said:

in bright light I'm often within a stop of an acceptable exposure and sometimes much closer. In poor light its more difficult and I can be well out. So you can use a camera without a meter but I expect that as light levels drop so will the number of viable (not 'correct' I hasten to add, as this is a complex concept) exposures.

Exactly. Very good point.
Sunny 16 works perfectly fine out in the open during the day, but once you go in the shade (say, under a bridge) on a cloudy day, or indoors, all bets are off.

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Vlad Soare

[hepcat]

2 hours ago, Vlad Soare said:

Exactly. Very good point.
Sunny 16 works perfectly fine out in the open during the day, but once you go in the shade (say, under a bridge) on a cloudy day, or indoors, all bets are off.

 

It works fine as long as there is daylight.  It's after dusk or indoors that it's not so valuable.

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[spydrxx]

A tool I've used over the years is the Jiffy Calculator in lieu of a meter. It is based on the Sunny 16 guidelines, but identifies 26 levels of exposure including a number of interior lighting situations as well as night time situations. Of course one doesn't have to memorize all the factors...but I've found that identifying a scene with its variants in advance of shooting (which might extend several hours) well prepares one to adjust exposure without relying on a meter (which might not have the sensitivity to measure some poorly lit situations). It is free for download from several sources, and used to be available in finished plastic embedded form in many photo shops, typically costing around $15.

[Anbaric]

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8 hours ago, spydrxx said:

A tool I've used over the years is the Jiffy Calculator in lieu of a meter. It is based on the Sunny 16 guidelines, but identifies 26 levels of exposure including a number of interior lighting situations as well as night time situations. Of course one doesn't have to memorize all the factors...but I've found that identifying a scene with its variants in advance of shooting (which might extend several hours) well prepares one to adjust exposure without relying on a meter (which might not have the sensitivity to measure some poorly lit situations). It is free for download from several sources, and used to be available in finished plastic embedded form in many photo shops, typically costing around $15.

That one is new to me - I love how specific it is! ('16 - Niagara Falls, in white lights; 18 - Niagara Falls, in colored lights; 2 - Burning buildings, fires. For detail in surrounding areas, use Scene 5.')

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[Greenhilltony]

Since I do snapshots often and love shooting from hip/chest, and the Leica Ms don't have meter readout outside the viewfinder, I worry the camera meter gives a slower than expected shutter speed when I hit the shutter while walking in a fast pace. So no matter the camera has auto-exposure function or not, I always prefer setting all things manually so I'm fully in control. The built-in meter is convenient when I'm not confident about my guess. 

The more you shoot or try shooting, the more you shoot in a certain light conditions, the faster you build "muscle memory" of feeling the exposure setups in those conditions. Be a flesh-light meter, cool!

[pgk]

1 minute ago, Greenhilltony said:

..... the more you shoot in a certain light conditions .....

Whilst it may surprise some, my experience is that light levels don't change as much as people might think. Pre-setting exposure can be a very liberating way of operating at times.

[Greenhilltony]

1 minute ago, pgk said:

Whilst it may surprise some, my experience is that light levels don't change as much as people might think. Pre-setting exposure can be a very liberating way of operating at times.

I totally agree. Indoor like metros, stations and shopping malls, the light levels are quite consistent, probably they need to follow some industrial and/or government standards. For outdoor, only need to know how many stops are between the shadow and direct light area. I will adjust my setups once when I know I'm going into a place with two stops different light levels.

 

[pippy]

7 minutes ago, Greenhilltony said:

...the Leica Ms don't have meter readout outside the viewfinder...

 

4 minutes ago, pgk said:

...my experience is that light levels don't change as much as people might think. Pre-setting exposure can be a very liberating way of operating at times.

Taking these two points together; one of the design-details I did appreciate which was found on the Nikon F and F2 cameras when Photomic Finders were fitted was the centre-needle exposure readout on the top of the prism-housing. From time to time when walking about I would check that the light-levels / speed & aperture settings were 'correct' if a snap needed to be grabbed immediately.

And yes; as Paul mentions above in most general-snapping outdoor shooting situations light-levels change only gradually.

FWIW the first thing I will do with my camera after leaving the house is take an average reading and set the Sp/Ap dials accordingly. Fine-tweaking can be undertaken using the TTL meter if time is on my side but having the camera set-up with a rough, basic 'correct' setting is a good safety-net-starting-point.

Philip.

[pgk]

1 minute ago, pippy said:

FWIW the first thing I will do with my camera after leaving the house is take an average reading and set the Sp/Ap dials accordingly.

Exactly what I do. And FWIW my cameras are set to base ISO, 1/250s, f/8 and infiniy focus when 'at rest' so I have a known starting point to make fast adjustmets from. Consistency of controls can be usefu/important if this is the way you want to operate.

[Ouroboros]

 

2 hours ago, pgk said:

Whilst it may surprise some, my experience is that light levels don't change as much as people might think. Pre-setting exposure can be a very liberating way of operating at times.

Contrary to the above, light levels can and occasionally do change rapidly, especially in latitudes similar to the UK as any regular landscapist or wedding photographer will likely have experienced.  

My caveat to the above is, it depends:

• on the subject
• on contrast within the scene or subject
• on the processing regime
• on how important it is to be certain of 'getting it right'

 

Old School here and I have more meterless cameras than cameras with a built-in meter. Personally, I don't see guessing at exposures as anything much to brag about.  I invariably measure light before I press the shutter release, it's the way I was taught a long time ago.

 

[aesop]

5 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

...<snip> Personally, I don't see guessing at exposures as anything much to brag about.  I invariably measure light before I press the shutter release, it's the way I was taught a long time ago.

 

 

    ...reminds me of the old "measure twice cut once" thing of yore. The simple truth about photography is that, irrespective of equipment, for best results, there must be measurement. "Sunny 16" notwithstanding, knowingly introducing an unnecessary scope for error into measurements within the shooting process makes no sense to me and is potentially wasteful. The less said about slide film or darkrooms, the better.

One more thing - I think we can all agree that film is much more expensive than it used to be. With this in mind, and assuming there is a compelling desire to hone (or challenge) ones light-measurement technique or ability, doesn't practising with just a light meter and your brain serve one better?

 

 

 

[hansvons]

I can't estimate exposure settings by eye. I tried it for decades and was too often off to believe my eyes/gut/sunny 16. The darker it gets, the easier it is, as the logarithmic curve of human sight enters the quasi-linear zone. Nonetheless, it's still hard for me to nail even in relatively dim situations such as a studio. Yes, there's always something on the negative, which makes one think you nailed it. Because one stop makes a ton of difference in grain, colour and contrast, I'd never believe an eye-based guesstimate. 

It's all about informed decisions for me. That's why I prefer to have a light meter available. It could be my phone (for my M4P) or the M6. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by hansvons

[Huss]

On 6/12/2023 at 4:45 AM, spydrxx said:

A tool I've used over the years is the Jiffy Calculator in lieu of a meter. It is based on the Sunny 16 guidelines, but identifies 26 levels of exposure including a number of interior lighting situations as well as night time situations. Of course one doesn't have to memorize all the factors...but I've found that identifying a scene with its variants in advance of shooting (which might extend several hours) well prepares one to adjust exposure without relying on a meter (which might not have the sensitivity to measure some poorly lit situations). It is free for download from several sources, and used to be available in finished plastic embedded form in many photo shops, typically costing around $15.

Or you could just use a light meter.

[CSG123]

Growing up using cameras without built in light meters made me think I had exposure figured out just using sunny 16.  Over the past 10-15 years, as I bought a series of small P&S digitals and then, finally, a couple Nikon DSLRs and Fuji cameras, I think I started getting exposure stupid by relying so much on the built in meters without giving much thought to exposure ratios.  Having recently brought my M4 back into service after it suffered a detached shutter curtain with that repair and a full CLA (DAG) and replaced the light seals on one of my OM-1 SLRs (I have a spare), I realized I should start being more thoughtful on exposures again, especially as I don't shoot film often these days.  But when I do, It's either a 100/125 ISO or 400 ISO B&W negative film so a bit more forgiving than other types of film stock.  Anyway, when shooting my old manual film cameras now, I always have my phone light meter app and, usually, a Sekonic L-208.  I still get it right using sunny 16 most of the time as I spent a little time relearning manual exposure again.

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

Or you could just use a light meter.

Yes, but is it reliable for 'zombie attack, deserted warehouse, lit by Zippo flame'? That's probably on the inside flap of the Jiffy calculator.

[Huss]

19 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Yes, but is it reliable for 'zombie attack, deserted warehouse, lit by Zippo flame'? That's probably on the inside flap of the Jiffy calculator.

Good point.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pgk]

At times it can be useful to have some idea of exposure based on visual assesment even if its just sufficient to tell you when a light meter is giving wrong readings (it happens) or when batteries run out. It may not be as accurate but at least you can keep shooting.