24-90 and OIS

[beewee]

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On 5/12/2023 at 11:58 PM, mumu said:

the camera (SL2-S) decides whether the OIS of the lens is used or not

It’s widely accepted within the industry that:

• OIS is more effective compared to IBIS at longer focal lengths
• IBIS is more effective compared to OIS at wider focal lengths
• OIS can only compensate for 2-axis of motion, pan and tilt
• IBIS can (if designed to do so) compensate for 5-axis of motion, pan, tilt, roll, lateral and vertical translation/shift
• When moving the sensor for IBIS and using lenses with strong distortion, the distortion needs to be compensated in an asymmetrical manner as the sensor shifts away from the center of the image plane. Otherwise, you’ll get some funky asymmetrical distortion in the image. For DNGs, you’ll need a raw editor that can take advantage of this metadata to correctly apply the corrections in a way to compensate for this.

In general, lateral and vertical translation of a camera body has very little to no impact on image blur at longer distances so the benefit of compensating for lateral/vertical translation/shift is not great unless you’re shooting macro shots. However, pan, tilt, roll have significant impact on image blur at all distances and especially at longer focal lengths.

In order to benefit from OIS + IBIS, the camera and lens must detect the motion and decide whether OIS, IBIS, or a combination of both would be best suited to correct for the camera shake/motion based on a combination of focusing distance and focal length used. For example, at long focal length and far focus distances, it is better to use OIS to compensate for pan and tilt, and use IBIS only for roll to maximize the range of motion for the IBIS motor to get the best of both stabilization systems. However, if the camera is able to detect that the system is mounted on a tripod and only has to compensate for pan/tilt, then the camera can further extend the use of IBIS for increased pan/tilt compensation in combination with the OIS. All of this takes a lot of coordination between the two and a camera must also account for things like lens distortion as it shifts the sensor when using IBIS.

There may also be other lens parameters, beyond distortion, that are proprietary in nature which is not shared in the body/lens communication protocol and as such the body cannot request such information from the lens if it wasn’t already stored in the body’s firmware. It is possible that, for this reason, only same-branded OIS lenses and IBIS bodies can benefit from maximum OIS+IBIS compensation, at least for now. If the L-mount Alliance partners decide to open up more of the protocol, or if Leica and Panasonic decides to increase their collaboration on this front via their L² partnership, this may change in the future.

Edited May 14, 2023 by beewee

[drjonb]

On 5/14/2023 at 11:38 AM, jaapv said:

Let us know… 

Leica Germany have not heard of any issues with IBIS and OIS when using L-Mount lenses on the SL2-S.  They would “love to hear” about any issues…and the L-Mount lenses and camera bodies concerned, if such information can be provided to them.  Perhaps you can provide such information.

[jaapv]

Nobody said there were issues, just that they don’t integrate fully ( see the Panasonic link I provided) like some  more sophisticated one-brand systems do. OIS is fine and so is IBIS they just don’t combine to Dual-IS. Nothing strange there, there are other advanced features that Leica does not offer, like pre-release and in-camera focus stacking. 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Nobody said there were issues, just that they don’t integrate fully ( see the Panasonic link I provided) like some  more sophisticated one-brand systems do. OIS is fine and so is IBIS they just don’t combine to Dual-IS. Nothing strange there, there are other advanced features that Leica does not offer, like pre-release and in-camera focus stacking. 

With respect, the link you shared is about Micro 43. Which you acknowledge. But means it does not tell us if the L mount alliance collaborate on cross-brand IBIS and OIS. To my knowledge, in the M43 world, Panasonic never had a manufacturing partnership with Olympus (those are the two major players). This is very much different from the L mount collaboration(s) between Sigma, Leica, and Panasonic ...

[jaapv]

Leica has a separate technology sharing agreement with Panasonic which dates back to years before the L mount and is quite far-reaching. 

[drjonb]

17 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Nobody said there were issues, just that they don’t integrate fully ( see the Panasonic link I provided) like some  more sophisticated one-brand systems do. OIS is fine and so is IBIS they just don’t combine to Dual-IS. Nothing strange there, there are other advanced features that Leica does not offer, like pre-release and in-camera focus stacking. 

I really do not want to prolong this, but you have stated, “OIS does not integrate properly when camera and lens are not of the same brand.”  “…does not integrate properly…”. That sounds like a pretty serious issue to me, were it true!  You are now saying that “they don’t integrate fully”, whatever that means; if that were true, it would also constitute an “issue”.  I believe that people like me (amateur photographers) come to the forum to learn and solve issues when they arise.  When seemingly factual statements are made by senior forum members such as yourself, many will rely on them and ‘act’ accordingly.  Had I read your statements, I would certainly have thought twice (or several times) about buying the Sigma 60-600mm zoom, fortunately, I had done my homework and was more than satisfied that the SL2-S and this new Sigma zoom would work very well together and that OIS and IBIS were fully compatible - the results so far would tend to confirm that.  Your statements are quite definitive with no caveats, that is an issue.  

There may be, in theory, specific individual pairs of lens/bodies (L Mount) where OIS and IBIS are not compatible, and if you have specific information confirming that, I think you should share it with the forum and with Leica.  But I respectfully suggest that you should refrain from making blanket statements which are not supported by proper evidence.

[jaapv]

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What issue? That Leica and Sigma have not incorporated Dual IS?  That sounds like a design decision to me. You can decide for yourself whether good basic OIS like the 60-600 suits your needs. I would like to have the more advanced system, having experienced it on MFT but as I said, unfortunately it does not exist. If you interpret that as a failure that is up to you. I do not. 

[drjonb]

20 minutes ago, jaapv said:

What issue? That Leica and Sigma have not incorporated Dual IS?  That sounds like a design decision to me. You can decide for yourself whether good basic OIS like the 60-600 suits your needs. I would like to have the more advanced system, having experienced it on MFT but as I said, unfortunately it does not exist. If you interpret that as a failure that is up to you. I do not. 

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about now.  Over and Out.

[Virob]

Not sure if I am doing myself or anyone else any favors by jumping in here. The original SL did not have IBIS and image stabilization was provided when using a lens with OIS built in, which was the whole point of putting OIS in the 24-90. The SL2 however has IBIS.  The question becomes, does both IBIS and OIS work at the same time (dual stabilization), or is it one or the other at any particular instance? 

Some camera manufactures make a big deal, that they support dual stabilization, others don't or are less clear about it. I could be wrong, but my impression is that the SL2 does not support dual stabilization. In default mode, the SL2 uses IBIS if the camera doesn't detect a lens with OIS. If it does detect a lens with OIS, like the 24-90, the camera decides which is used at any particular instance (for example, maybe it uses IBIS at 24mm and OIS at 90mm, or maybe it is more sophisticated then that). For a lens like the Sigma 150-600, if OIS is set on the lens, IBIS on the camera is turned off. If OIS is switched off on the lens, then IBIS is turned back on.  In this case the camera detects whether OIS is on or off on the lens and responds accordingly with setting IBIS on or off (off course you can also manually turn off IBIS). For adapted lenses with OIS, I assume that if the camera can detect that the lens has OIS turned on, IBIS is shut off. If that information is not communicated through the adapter, then no idea what happens.

Anyway, that is how I " think" it works, happy to be proven wrong.

Honestly, I don't think dual stabilization, which I think is what has been referred it in some of the earlier posts as "fully integrated image stabilization", is a big deal. As has been mentioned previously, OIS is better for telephoto and IBIS for wide angle lenses. 

[jaapv]

The camera I used it on (MFT 100-400 (equ. 200-600) was rather effective - down to 1/30 at full focal length.

 

11 minutes ago, Virob said:

Honestly, I don't think dual stabilization, which I think is what has been referred it in some of the earlier posts as "fully integrated image stabilization", is a big deal

 

[drjonb]

23 minutes ago, Virob said:

Not sure if I am doing myself or anyone else any favors by jumping in here. The original SL did not have IBIS and image stabilization was provided when using a lens with OIS built in, which was the whole point of putting OIS in the 24-90. The SL2 however has IBIS.  The question becomes, does both IBIS and OIS work at the same time (dual stabilization), or is it one or the other at any particular instance? 

Some camera manufactures make a big deal, that they support dual stabilization, others don't or are less clear about it. I could be wrong, but my impression is that the SL2 does not support dual stabilization. In default mode, the SL2 uses IBIS if the camera doesn't detect a lens with OIS. If it does detect a lens with OIS, like the 24-90, the camera decides which is used at any particular instance (for example, maybe it uses IBIS at 24mm and OIS at 90mm, or maybe it is more sophisticated then that). For a lens like the Sigma 150-600, if OIS is set on the lens, IBIS on the camera is turned off. If OIS is switched off on the lens, then IBIS is turned back on.  In this case the camera detects whether OIS is on or off on the lens and responds accordingly with setting IBIS on or off (off course you can also manually turn off IBIS). For adapted lenses with OIS, I assume that if the camera can detect that the lens has OIS turned on, IBIS is shut off. If that information is not communicated through the adapter, then no idea what happens.

Anyway, that is how I " think" it works, happy to be proven wrong.

Honestly, I don't think dual stabilization, which I think is what has been referred it in some of the earlier posts as "fully integrated image stabilization", is a big deal. As has been mentioned previously, OIS is better for telephoto and IBIS for wide angle lenses. 

You may like to refer to this topic.

With great respect, you are making a whole lot of assumptions and maybes in your post.  I cannot speak to the Sigma 150-600, but for the new Sigma 60-600mm, when OIS is switched on on the lens, the menu option in the camera providing the on/off option for IBIS, is greyed out, the IBIS is switched to on and cannot be switched off.  If the OIS is switched off on the lens, then the on/off option for IBIS becomes active and can be changed to on or off.  This behaviour is different to how you have described the behaviour of the 150-600.  I hope this information helps your understanding.  

Regarding how and whether OIS and IBIS work together or separately, there is no published information that I have found from the manufacturers, other than the general statement that within the L Mount family, where optical stabilisation is available in both lens and camera, theses lenses and cameras are fully compatible.  Without access to the way the proprietary stabilisation systems of the respective L Alliance brand systems work, or the detailed interface protocols between lens and body (also proprietary and not available), it is all speculation regarding so-called dual stabilisation.  It is also not feasible to make apples for apples comparisons, or carry out tests, between the many possible lens-body combinations.  But, the proof of the pudding is in the eating…and I have been eating the SL2-S - Sigma 60-500mm pie, and it tastes very good, the quality of images I have been very satisfactory to me.  It seems that at least for this specific combo, the lens and camera work very well together.

 

 

[Virob]

2 hours ago, drjonb said:

 

With great respect, you are making a whole lot of assumptions and maybes in your post.  I cannot speak to the Sigma 150-600, but for the new Sigma 60-600mm, when OIS is switched on on the lens, the menu option in the camera providing the on/off option for IBIS, is greyed out, the IBIS is switched to on and cannot be switched off.  If the OIS is switched off on the lens, then the on/off option for IBIS becomes active and can be changed to on or off.  This behaviour is different to how you have described the behaviour of the 150-600.  I hope this information helps your understanding.  

I think we are talking around the same thing. When lens OIS is on, the camera is smart enough to sense it, and IBIS is switched off.  The menu is grayed because it isn't possible to have both on at the same time, so the option to turn IBIS on is deactivated. If it was possible to have both on at the same time, it seems reasonable to assume that it should also be possible to manually turn off IBIS in the menu while OIS is on, but that isn't the case. 

Likewise, when OIS is switched off, it is possible to still turn IBIS on or off as is the case for any L mount lens, so the menu is no longer grayed out and is now active.

Sorry if I wasn't clearer.

The assumption I am making is that OIS and IBIS cannot be used at the same time by the SL2, it is one or the other.  I agree, I could be wrong. Without any supporting evidence that it can, I start with the assumption that a function does not exist then to assume it does.

2 hours ago, drjonb said:

Regarding how and whether OIS and IBIS work together or separately, there is no published information that I have found from the manufacturers, other than the general statement that within the L Mount family, where optical stabilisation is available in both lens and camera, theses lenses and cameras are fully compatible.  Without access to the way the proprietary stabilisation systems of the respective L Alliance brand systems work, or the detailed interface protocols between lens and body (also proprietary and not available), it is all speculation regarding so-called dual stabilisation.  It is also not feasible to make apples for apples comparisons, or carry out tests, between the many possible lens-body combinations.  But, the proof of the pudding is in the eating…and I have been eating the SL2-S - Sigma 60-500mm pie, and it tastes very good, the quality of images I have been very satisfactory to me.  It seems that at least for this specific combo, the lens and camera work very well together.

 

 

Exactly, I am also amazed at how well image stabilization works with the SL2+150-600. 

[drjonb]

6 hours ago, Virob said:

I think we are talking around the same thing. When lens OIS is on, the camera is smart enough to sense it, and IBIS is switched off.  The menu is grayed because it isn't possible to have both on at the same time, so the option to turn IBIS on is deactivated. If it was possible to have both on at the same time, it seems reasonable to assume that it should also be possible to manually turn off IBIS in the menu while OIS is on, but that isn't the case. 

Likewise, when OIS is switched off, it is possible to still turn IBIS on or off as is the case for any L mount lens, so the menu is no longer grayed out and is now active.

Sorry if I wasn't clearer.

The assumption I am making is that OIS and IBIS cannot be used at the same time by the SL2, it is one or the other.  I agree, I could be wrong. Without any supporting evidence that it can, I start with the assumption that a function does not exist then to assume it does.

Exactly, I am also amazed at how well image stabilization works with the SL2+150-600. 

Thanks for your comments.  I am glad that you are getting great results with the 150-600.

I may be wrong, but here is my logic, this refers only to the 60-600.  If OIS is switched off on the lens, the IBIS option on the camera can be switched to off - this is primarily used when on a tripod.  But when the lens OIS is switched back on, the IBIS option is automatically switched back to on, and the menu is greyed out - I think that this means that OIS and IBIS are both on.  My conclusions (assumptions) for the 60-600 are therefore: first, you can switch IBIS on or off, but only if the OIS is switched off; second, if OIS is on, IBIS is set to on and cannot be changed - so OIS and IBIS are always both on; third, based on results, the OIS and IBIS are working well together when both on; fourth, results are also great on the tripod, when both OIS and IBIS are off.

[LocalHero1953]

46 minutes ago, drjonb said:

But when the lens OIS is switched back on, the IBIS option is automatically switched back to on, and the menu is greyed out - I think that this means that OIS and IBIS are both on.

What makes you think that? My assumption (and it is just an assumption) would be that the SL2-S cannot communicate fully with the non-Leica lens OIS and so IBIS is turned off to avoid confusion. The implication of your assumption is that the only way to turn IS fully off (e.g for tripod use) is to turn it off on the lens first; it seems unlikely that Leica would surrender control to the off-brand lens in this way.

I don't have a non-Leica lens with OIS, so I can't investigate.

To answer the OP's question, turning off IS on the camera turns off both IBIS and OIS on Leica lenses and, I assume, non-Leica stabilised lenses without a OIS off switch. Note that the menu option is just for 'image stabilisation', not IBIS or OIS. I can't answer for non-Leica lenses with a switch - I don't have any to test.

[drjonb]

I agree with you that these are all assumptions in the absence of definitive proprietary data about exactly how these systems are working, information that is unlikely to be forthcoming.  The L Mount alliance agreements actually do not oblige the three brands to share proprietary information, beyond that specifically required to meet the terms of the alliance.  Of course, there are statements that the lens-camera pairings within the L Mount branding, are fully compatible unless otherwise stated.  And I believe such statements.

Regarding your question: I do not know what constitutes “communicate fully”, but it is a fact that if my Sigma 60-600mm is attached to my SL2-S, and OIS is switched on on the lens, then within the camera menu settings (page 5), IBIS is on and cannot be switched off.  And when the IBIS menu option is set to on, I assume and believe that that is what it means, that IBIS, that is, camera stabilisation, is on.  That is, this is not an assumption, it is how it works, at least with my SL2-S and Sigma 60-600m.  

For me, it makes sense, neither of the three brands are surrendering anything, it is smart marketing.  One of the principal points of the L Mount alliance is to help Leica sell more bodies, and for Panasonic and Sigma to sell more lenses; clearly they all feel that the net sales results will be positive.

[wizard]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb drjonb:

 But when the lens OIS is switched back on, the IBIS option is automatically switched back to on, and the menu is greyed out - I think that this means that OIS and IBIS are both on.

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb drjonb:

And when the IBIS menu option is set to on, I assume and believe that that is what it means, that IBIS, that is, camera stabilisation, is on.

OIS on and IBIS on doesn't necessarily mean that both systems work in unison to achieve dual IS, as e.g. in Olympus cameras. It could well mean that, while both OIS and IBIS are technically switched to "on", the camera decides which one to use depending on focal length and possibly other parameters. Hoewever, I have no inside information on that, and only Leica themselves will know. Still, if both systems would work in unison to achieve dual IS, I would expect Leica to advertise this very fact, which they don't seem to do.

[drjonb]

Dual or mono or quadruple AI driven stabilisation… who knows? Who cares? I’m very happy with the results I’m getting from my Sigma zoom! And the images are what counts. And I didn’t have to shell out thousands for a Nikon or Canon long lens which needs a pram and aluminium case to push it around!

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, drjonb said:

Regarding your question: I do not know what constitutes “communicate fully”, but it is a fact that if my Sigma 60-600mm is attached to my SL2-S, and OIS is switched on on the lens, then within the camera menu settings (page 5), IBIS is on and cannot be switched off.  And when the IBIS menu option is set to on, I assume and believe that that is what it means, that IBIS, that is, camera stabilisation, is on.  That is, this is not an assumption, it is how it works, at least with my SL2-S and Sigma 60-600m.  

To be exact, note that the menu setting is neither IBIS nor OIS, but is the non-specific 'Image Stabilisation', and shows On or Off.

Since I don't have anything like your combination to hand, can you confirm for me what you see in the menu when OIS is switched on on the lens: 'On' but greyed out?
If you switch off Image Stabilisation in the menu, then attach your lens and manually turn OIS on, does the menu also change to On (but still greyed out)?

Is there a way that you can tell that IBIS is actually working (as well as OIS)? I can't think of a way of telling. This is just for info, not to argue with you.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, drjonb said:

Dual or mono or quadruple AI driven stabilisation… who knows? Who cares? I’m very happy with the results I’m getting from my Sigma zoom! And the images are what counts. And I didn’t have to shell out thousands for a Nikon or Canon long lens which needs a pram and aluminium case to push it around!

Well, isn't that what it is all about? Leave the hypothetical technical discussions to us nerds 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[drjonb]

7 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

To be exact, note that the menu setting is neither IBIS nor OIS, but is the non-specific 'Image Stabilisation', and shows On or Off.

Since I don't have anything like your combination to hand, can you confirm for me what you see in the menu when OIS is switched on on the lens: 'On' but greyed out?
If you switch off Image Stabilisation in the menu, then attach your lens and manually turn OIS on, does the menu also change to On (but still greyed out)?

Is there a way that you can tell that IBIS is actually working (as well as OIS)? I can't think of a way of telling. This is just for info, not to argue with you.

Do people argue on here, I never noticed!

I know that the camera menu ibis option is just the camera, nothing to do with the lens.

I can confirm that when the lens is attached with OIS switched on, the menu option is greyed out but shows it as, ‘on’.

I only attach a lens when the camera is off. But when I attach the 60-600, and OIS is switched on, and switch the camera on, the menu option is greyed out and shows on.

I don’t know how to check if IBIS or OIS or both (dual I believe is the expression) is working…other than when I hand-hold this not inconsiderable lens, extend it to 840mm, and use modest shutter speeds, I get surprisingly sharp results, unless the subject is moving too fast which is about aperture not OIS/IBIS.

I hope I have answered your questions but please ask me to clarify if I have not.