Stabilized lenses L mount Alliance or other suppliers

[LCM94]

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Hello,

Here to provide a list of stabilized lenses for L Mount Alliance if it can help (I needed to know what's available so I share it also).

Please add anything that I might have missed.

I do not know if you can adapt other types of lenses to benefit from stab & autofocus, so please add any other info;

thanks

Leica

Vario-Elmarit-SL 24-90 f/2.8-4 ASPH.

APO-Vario-Elmarit-SL 90-280 f/2.8-4

Leica Vario-Elmar-SL 100-400 f/5-6.3

Sigma

SIGMA 60-600mm F4.5-6.3 DG DN OS | Sports

SIGMA 150-600mm F5-6.3 DG DN OS | Sports

SIGMA 100-400mm F5-6.3 DG DN OS | Contemporary

Panasonic

LUMIX S 24-105mm F4 MACRO O.I.S.

LUMIX S PRO 70-200mm F2.8 O.I.S.

LUMIX S PRO 70-200mm F4 O.I.S.

LUMIX S 70-300mm F4.5-5.6 MACRO O.I.S.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by LCM94

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[hepcat]

For bodies that can use the Sigma MC-21, the latest model of the Sigma 150mm f/2.8 OS macro offers adequate AF performance and OIS, even though it's not on the list of "tested" lenses for the MC-21.

[beewee]

As a general rule:

• Optical image stabilization (OIS) will work with OIS capable lens when mounted on an L-mount body, even third-party lenses like Canon EF lenses via MC-21 adapter
• Any non-OIS capable lens will work on an L-mount body but in-body image stabilization (IBIS) may or may not work
  • If proper focal length information is manually set or relayed to the SL body, the SL body can support IBIS on the lens
    • Sigma, Leica, Panasonic L-mount lenses will automatically relay this info
    • Other lenses including adapted M-lenses and R-lenses require either ROM capability, 6-bit coding with official Leica adapter, or manual setting of lens profile
• If mixing and matching OIS L-mount lenses and IBIS L-mount bodies across different manufacturers, only OIS or IBIS will be supported, not both
• If you want to take advantage of combined OIS + IBIS, you need to have both lens and body be the same brand. For example SL body + SL lens or Lumix body + Lumix lens.

[helged]

8 hours ago, beewee said:

As a general rule:

• Optical image stabilization (OIS) will work with OIS capable lens when mounted on an L-mount body, even third-party lenses like Canon EF lenses via MC-21 adapter
• Any non-OIS capable lens will work on an L-mount body but in-body image stabilization (IBIS) may or may not work
  • If proper focal length information is manually set or relayed to the SL body, the SL body can support IBIS on the lens
    • Sigma, Leica, Panasonic L-mount lenses will automatically relay this info
    • Other lenses including adapted M-lenses and R-lenses require either ROM capability, 6-bit coding with official Leica adapter, or manual setting of lens profile
• If mixing and matching OIS L-mount lenses and IBIS L-mount bodies across different manufacturers, only OIS or IBIS will be supported, not both
• If you want to take advantage of combined OIS + IBIS, you need to have both lens and body be the same brand. For example SL body + SL lens or Lumix body + Lumix lens.

+1.

IBIS on Leica SL and Lumix S-bodies is excellent (among the best in the industry), irrespective of whether lens stabilisation works or not. Actually, IBIS+lens stabilisation works only marginally better than IBIS only. 

Third party lenses like Canon 400mm f4 DO v2, with lens stabilisation working on L-mount bodies (with the  electronic Sigma MC-21 adapter), but without IBIS, yields also excellent stabilisation (4+ stops, I imagine).

Edited May 11, 2023 by helged

[BernardC]

16 hours ago, beewee said:

• If mixing and matching OIS L-mount lenses and IBIS L-mount bodies across different manufacturers, only OIS or IBIS will be supported, not both
• If you want to take advantage of combined OIS + IBIS, you need to have both lens and body be the same brand. For example SL body + SL lens or Lumix body + Lumix lens.

Has Leica confirmed this? All we know for sure is that the camera doesn't let you choose the type of stabilization with non-Leica lenses. It doesn't tell you what type it is using either.

However, we also know that either kind of stabilization can be used with third-party lenses. OIS works with Sigma and Canon. IBIS works with any lens that relays its focal length electronically (L-mount or EOS).

My best guess is that the camera defers to the lens's OIS if it's available. That makes sense because the camera has no way of optimizing the two systems. For instance, how would it know which vibration frequencies are dampened by the lens' OIS, and which ones need to be addressed by IBIS? You certainly wouldn't want the same vibration to be "corrected" twice.

[drjonb]

Spoiler alert - I have absolutely no inside or other technical knowledge about this topic.  According to Sigma’s web site, their lens OIS works by using in-lens sensors to detect motion of certain floating lens elements, and then uses internal motors to compensate for such movements and deliver a ‘stable’ image to the viewfinder. I assume, therefore that provided the lens has correct electrical power from the body, its OIS can and should work.  As I understand it, Leica’s IBIS works by detecting physical movement of the floating sensor and then compensating for that also using its own proprietary techniques.  So we have two very distinct and independent systems at work.  I speculate that the camera OIS does not know and does not care whether the incident image via the lens is stable nor has the camera any way to test that, it only cares whether the sensor itself is physically stable.  Therefore, if I am right (highly unlikely!) lens OIS and camera OIS are entirely independent and there is no need for them to work together or be optimised.  If a lens is mount-compatible with the body, meaning it has power and the body can control the lens’ AF), then both lens and body OIS work seamlessly.

Please shoot me down if my ramblings make no sense.

[jaapv]

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I do know that the different OIS functions on some long Sigma lenses do work on the SL 601 and thus certainly should on later IBIS enabled bodies. For instance EVF stabilization that I have set under  f1 on my Sigma 150-600 works well 

[beewee]

1 hour ago, drjonb said:

Therefore, if I am right (highly unlikely!) lens OIS and camera OIS are entirely independent and there is no need for them to work together or be optimised.

If the lens and body does not coordinate the OIS and IBIS correction, it will double correct and actually create blur.

[drjonb]

1 minute ago, beewee said:

If the lens and body does not coordinate the OIS and IBIS correction, it will double correct and actually create blur.

I don’t think so, that’s my point.  The Leica IBIS is only focused on whether there is physical movement of the sensor, which it can correct.  It is not concerned with movement of the image on the sensor, if it was, then it would be a challenge to take videos or images where the subject is moving.  The in-camera OIS is ‘after the fact’, that is, as the sensor has the image from the lens.  On the other side, the lens OIS is only concerned with delivering a stable image to the sensor by compensating for any physical movement of the floating lens elements.  A double correction cannot occur between two entirely independent basically electro-mechanical systems.  

[beewee]

5 minutes ago, drjonb said:

I don’t think so, that’s my point.  The Leica IBIS is only focused on whether there is physical movement of the sensor, which it can correct.  It is not concerned with movement of the image on the sensor, if it was, then it would be a challenge to take videos or images where the subject is moving.  The in-camera OIS is ‘after the fact’, that is, as the sensor has the image from the lens.  On the other side, the lens OIS is only concerned with delivering a stable image to the sensor by compensating for any physical movement of the floating lens elements.  A double correction cannot occur between two entirely independent basically electro-mechanical systems.  

I suggest you look into how OIS and IBIS actually works. Without going into all the gory details, you can run an experiment:

1. You have an OIS enabled lens + non-IBIS body (think Canon IS lens on a dSLR body, no IBIS) and it produces a rock-solid image while handholding with small movement. This means the lens is compensating for the motion of the entire system, not just a lens element or movement of a sensor. The OIS optics moves the lens to compensate for the motion of the system in 2-axis (pitch and pan). All other components are rigidly mounted within the lens barrel.
2. You have a non-OIS enabled lens + IBIS enabled body and it produces a rock-solid image while hand holding with small movement. Tis means the sensor shift is compensating for the motion of the entire system, not just the body movement. The sensor is moving within the body to account for 5-axis of motion in the entire system (pitch, pan, roll, translation in horizontal and vertical).
3. If you combine OIS lens working independently from the IBIS body, the system will double compensate for pitch and pan because they are not coordinating their correction for pitch and pan motion.

[drjonb]

21 minutes ago, beewee said:

I suggest you look into how OIS and IBIS actually works. Without going into all the gory details, you can run an experiment:

1. You have an OIS enabled lens + non-IBIS body (think Canon IS lens on a dSLR body, no IBIS) and it produces a rock-solid image while handholding with small movement. This means the lens is compensating for the motion of the entire system, not just a lens element or movement of a sensor. The OIS optics moves the lens to compensate for the motion of the system in 2-axis (pitch and pan). All other components are rigidly mounted within the lens barrel.
2. You have a non-OIS enabled lens + IBIS enabled body and it produces a rock-solid image while hand holding with small movement. Tis means the sensor shift is compensating for the motion of the entire system, not just the body movement. The sensor is moving within the body to account for 5-axis of motion in the entire system (pitch, pan, roll, translation in horizontal and vertical).
3. If you combine OIS lens working independently from the IBIS body, the system will double compensate for pitch and pan because they are not coordinating their correction for pitch and pan motion.

Only the respective manufacturers know how their proprietary lens and camera OIS systems actually work.  Otherwise we have to rely on the high level descriptions they have published.  However, if we confine ourselves to just the L Alliance, we have nine combinations of proprietary systems involved.  In my view, your argument is flawed because it implies that these three L-alliance manufacturers have built into their cameras and lenses, the ability to control and coordinate each others’ lens and body OIS - this seems highly unlikely.  If you add other manufacturers’ lenses to the party the complexity gets even worse.  The other flaw in your argument, in my opinion, is that you are mixing up entirely different OIS technical approaches, that is, the lens OIS controls floating lens elements, the body OIS controls sensor movement.  Any coordination would end up with an endless feedback loop as each system tried to match/interact with the other.

The fact that when lens and camera OIS are both activated between different lens/body combos, ‘rock-solid images result’, suggests that they are independent not that they are synchronised.  The fact that when either body or lens OIS is activated, rock solid images also result, further suggests they are independent systems.  

As to your point 2, it does not prove anything because it is dependent on the assumption that there was sufficient movement in the lens which the body dialled out, independent of any sensor stabilisation.

In any event, unless one or more manufacturer contributes we are unlikely to resolve this conundrum.  

[beewee]

1 minute ago, drjonb said:

Any coordination would end up with an endless feedback loop as each system tried to match/interact with the other.

… and that’s why the two needs to know what each other is doing so they do not double compensate …

2 minutes ago, drjonb said:

The fact that when lens and camera OIS are both activated between different lens/body combos, ‘rock-solid images result’, suggests that they are independent not that they are synchronised.  The fact that when either body or lens OIS is activated, rock solid images also result, further suggests they are independent systems.  

Yes. So if you add them both together and they don’t know what each other are doing, they will both compensate for the same motion. The lens and body is a rigid-body system.

motion + (- motion) + (- motion) = - motion

[drjonb]

22 minutes ago, beewee said:

… and that’s why the two needs to know what each other is doing so they do not double compensate …

Yes. So if you add them both together and they don’t know what each other are doing, they will both compensate for the same motion. The lens and body is a rigid-body system.

motion + (- motion) + (- motion) = - motion

“…they will both compensate for the same motion…”. I think this is where the flaw in your argument lies.  The “same motion” as you call it, will result in different movements in the floating lens elements and the sensor, because the lens elements and sensor will be floating in different ways and ‘held’ under differing tensions and in different ways.  The lens elements and sensor will also have entirely different masses which is a key factor in regard to how they move under the same external loads.  The lens to camera body may be a rigid system, but the sensor and lens elements are not a rigid system, nor are they connected, and the mechanisms used to stabilise them are completely different.  The lens cannot compensate for sensor movement, and the camera cannot compensate for lens element movement, unless each system is entirely integrated with the other and each respective system can talk to the other and issue the required signals to control it.  I concede that, as an engineering matter, such a set of integrated proprietary systems could be built but, in my experience, this would be very expensive and not feasible for consumer cameras and lenses.  

I believe that the fact that we have all these different combinations (where proprietary OIS in-camera and in-lens are switched on at the same time) and which results in stable images, suggests that they work independently together.

I think I will pass on further discussion on this and see if any of the manufacturers are willing to reveal the actual way these systems work.

[beewee]

19 minutes ago, drjonb said:

floating lens elements and the sensor, because the lens elements and sensor will be floating in different ways and ‘held’ under differing tensions

It sounds like you have some misunderstanding about how OIS optics and IBIS sensors work.

If you ‘disable’ OIS, the lens locks the ‘floating’ element in place. There’s no movement of any lens elements. 

If you ‘disable’ IBIS, the body locks the sensor in place. There’s no movement of the sensor.

 

Also, since we’re on a Leica forum, when Leica literature talks about floating elements, it’s not some piece of glass that freely floats around. It’s a controlled fore-aft movement of a lens element or lens group that shifts forwards and backwards and its motion is coupled to the focusing group of the lens. The floating element moves in concert with the focusing group but at different rates along the lens barrel to optimize optical performance.

Edited May 11, 2023 by beewee

[drjonb]

14 minutes ago, beewee said:

It sounds like you have some misunderstanding about how OIS optics and IBIS sensors work.

If you ‘disable’ OIS, the lens locks the ‘floating’ element in place. There’s no movement of any lens elements. 

If you ‘disable’ IBIS, the body locks the sensor in place. There’s no movement of the sensor.

 

Also, since we’re on a Leica forum, when Leica literature talks about floating elements, it’s not some piece of glass that freely floats around. It’s a controlled fore-aft movement of a lens element or lens group that shifts forwards and backwards and its motion is coupled to the focusing group of the lens. The floating element moves in concert with the focusing group but at different rates along the lens barrel to optimize optical performance.

I really do not understand your last points or how they are relevant to what is being discussed.  It is self-evident that when OIS is disabled, the relevant sensor or lens element is ‘locked’.  My points earlier were obviously dealing with the scenario when OIS is not disabled.  And the original point of this thread was about cameras and lenses from different manufacturers working together successfully.  My specific reference to floating elements was about Sigma lenses and what Sigma say about their OIS.  

I cannot add anything further on this.  Thanks for your time.  And Good Luck.

[LCM94]

c

Edited May 12, 2023 by LCM94

[LCM94]

On 5/10/2023 at 9:43 PM, beewee said:

• Optical image stabilization (OIS) will work with OIS capable lens when mounted on an L-mount body, even third-party lenses like Canon EF lenses via MC-21 adapter
• Any non-OIS capable lens will work on an L-mount body but in-body image stabilization (IBIS) may or may not work
  • If proper focal length information is manually set or relayed to the SL body, the SL body can support IBIS on the lens
    • Sigma, Leica, Panasonic L-mount lenses will automatically relay this info

How can I know which Canon lenses offer autofocus? I guess OIS on the lens itself should work anyway? (I have the SL so IBIS).

Thx

I found this here, yet the Sigma adaptor does not work with SL Type 601 apparently:

 

Some other content as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp9z4z6Q-uM

and this https://leicarumors.com/2016/10/08/novoflex-canon-eos-ef-lens-to-leica-sl-typ-601-af-adapter-review.aspx/

Edited May 12, 2023 by LCM94