Overkill? Get both m10m and m10r or go with M11?

[lucy63]

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M11 pics of my father who has dementia..Loved that camera.

 

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[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, twogun said:

I made a bold move and sold my Q2 and purchased the M10M and waiting for it to arrive. I have several M lenses that I haven't had a chance to use and pushing myself into the BW world. I'm still weighing in on getting the m10r. 

If you want to explore b&w, I suggest that you just use the M10M for a good while and hold off on the M10-R (or any other color digital). That will expedite the learning curve, build a workflow and, most importantly. get you into a b&w shooting mindset without color distraction.

Jeff

[twogun]

44 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

If you want to explore b&w, I suggest that you just use the M10M for a good while and hold off on the M10-R (or any other color digital). That will expedite the learning curve, build a workflow and, most importantly. get you into a b&w shooting mindset without color distraction.

Jeff

Very good point! I think this might be the way first! 

[derleicaman]

I have both the M10-P and the M10M. I love having the flexibility of using the same batteries and accessories for both. I used them both last fall on my trip to Dublin, Wetzlar and Portugal. I used to just have an M10, and it does mean carrying more weight with two cameras, but I have fallen in love with the rendering of the Monocrom and 28 Summaron. Amazing! When you are travelling to a country you may not go to again, I can't think of a better way to do it. If one camera goes down, I have a solid back-up with me.

Toughest thing to do is to have discipline on the lenses you take. I always have the WATE with me for travel. I keep a 28/2 on one camera and a 35/2 v4 on the other. As I said, the 28 Summaron is magical and I keep it in a Viso 2 case, it is so small. I usually take a 50 and a 90 Macro as well. Trust me, the 90 Macro is more useful than you think! More than this, and the load becomes too much. I love my 75/2 Summicron, but it is heavy and unless I was taking a lot of portraits, it is too much.

I didn't have the 90 Macro with me in Wetzlar, and regretted it when I was taking some pictures of M875 in the Archive with my 50/1.2. Not the best solution! Images were OK, but I had to crop a lot to get useful images. My wides were of no use there.

[DadDadDaddyo]

Just as an aside, without providing input on the main question: it's really nice to hear other folks praise the 90 macro! I simply love that lens. It's great as-is, but I've also got both the goggles and the focusing extender in the bag, as each are useful under differing circumstances. It's simply a great, useful, flexible lens!

(Oh well, maybe just a little input on the main question. I bought the 90 macro to use with my M10M, but I've also found it's a wonderful match for my M11. Will it work well on the nascent M11M that may be lurking in my future? Most assuredly so. Soon? Well, I dunno;  the Vagaries and the Vicissitudes, right? It's hard to argue right now with the M10M and M11 in hand, especially at the sizes I usually print. But who knows? Hard to argue with 60mp and no Bayer filter. My GFX100S system is justifiably nervous...)

Edited April 28, 2023 by DadDadDaddyo

[overexposed]

I also have both, mostly use my m10m though, my m10r BP is usually in the shelf and i take it out only on special occasions or when i just feel like it

for color i usually use my phase one gear

but i am thinkibg about to get a silver m10r for more regular color work as a walkaround

Edited April 30, 2023 by overexposed

[01af]

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If you want (or seriously consider) the M10-R or M11 then the M Monochrom ist not for you.

[pgh]

2 hours ago, 01af said:

If you want (or seriously consider) the M10-R or M11 then the M Monochrom ist not for you.

This is silly, and the reasons are self-evident. 

[twogun]

8 hours ago, 01af said:

If you want (or seriously consider) the M10-R or M11 then the M Monochrom ist not for you.

Please elaborate.

[Bikie John]

Given the original premise I would go for the M10-R and -Mono combination. But then I like Mono bodies, and am not unduly tempted by the new stuff on the M11. The 10-R and -M would work as a nice pair, sharing accessories like battery, grip, etc. and with the files being the same size a lot (but not all!) of the admin and processing will carry over from one to the other.

The M10-P, -R, and -M also have a very quiet smooth-sounding shutter. Some people don't like this, preferring there to be an audible clunk. Others, me included, love it. No right or wrong there, just personal preference.

John

[01af]

It doesn't make sense to own—or worse yet, to carry—a regular and a monochrome camera at the same time. An M Monochrom is for those who see, and feel, and think, and create in black-and-white, and only in black-and-white. It is not meant for those who want to take the occasional B/W picture beside all their colour pictures. If you want to create B/W pictures but don't want to lose the ability to also take colour pictures then converting colour captures out of an M10-R or M11 to B/W pictures in post-production will yield more-than-good-enough results.

The raison d'être of the Leica M Monochrom ist not to have a camera that can take even higher-quality B/W pictures. But to have a camera that can take nothing else but B/W pictures. Wielding a regular digital camera alongside an M Monochrom just foils it.

[pgh]

3 hours ago, 01af said:

It doesn't make sense to own—or worse yet, to carry—a regular and a monochrome camera at the same time. An M Monochrom is for those who see, and feel, and think, and create in black-and-white, and only in black-and-white. It is not meant for those who want to take the occasional B/W picture beside all their colour pictures. If you want to create B/W pictures but don't want to lose the ability to also take colour pictures then converting colour captures out of an M10-R or M11 to B/W pictures in post-production will yield more-than-good-enough results.

The raison d'être of the Leica M Monochrom ist not to have a camera that can take even higher-quality B/W pictures. But to have a camera that can take nothing else but B/W pictures. Wielding a regular digital camera alongside an M Monochrom just foils it.

Again. This is silly. 

First, you can own two cameras and not carry them at the same time. I do this every day and have not yet perished. 

Second, a monochrom is for anyone who wants to buy one that can afford it, for whatever reasons they deem appropriate. 

I actually bought my mono specifically because of the resolution in the bw pics - amazingly. I have no problem shooting my M10 in bw and did it for a long time. I don't need a tool to force me into the mindset. I just needed it because the pics print better, esp in lower light situations - and this matters for some of my projects. 

Add on to all of this, if my clients wanted a shoot done in color, as they almost always do, and I didn't also have a color M, I would be losing some work over some stupidly purist mentality. 

[01af]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb pgh:

Again. This is silly. 

Not any more silly than what you say.

.

vor 24 Minuten schrieb pgh:

I actually bought my M Monochrom specifically because of the resolution in the B/W pictures—amazingly.

'Amazingly' ... yeah, sure. You can convert a Leica M (Typ 240) file—from two digital-camera generations ago—to black-and-white, print it to 40 × 60 inches (1 × 1.5 m), and then inspect it at reading distance without seeing any pixelation. You really need an image quality better than that!?

So why are you able to satisfy your clients' colour picture requirements?

.

vor 24 Minuten schrieb pgh:

... if my clients wanted a shoot done in color, as they almost always do, and I didn't also have a color M, I would be losing some work over some stupidly purist mentality. 

So a regular digital camera is all you need to serve your clients.

[pgh]

1 hour ago, 01af said:

So a regular digital camera is all you need to serve your clients.

I mean, clearly my standards for printing some images is different from yours, and that's fine - the issue is that you speak as if these things are objective. They're not. 

A converted M10 file falls short of what I use for some prints. Not that I need to go into specifics to justify it but yea, I've done installations where pictures are well larger than 40x60 printed on panels. But it's not just the resolution, it's also the noise at middle-high ISO and the detail in the shadows that the files offer. The differences may not matter to some people, but for me they are meaningful. I shot an M10 alone for 5 years - 1.5 years only black and white (aside from client work) and after hitting the wall enough times on file quality I needed a better solution. And trust me, having an M10 at home in a case while I'm out with my mono does not interfere with my ability to think about monochrom pictures. This is not some sort of biblical situation of temptations that needs a draconian philosophy to keep one on the right path. 

As ridiculous as this all may sound to you, I think it's a lot less ridiculous than buying a tool purely because one can't discipline themselves to stick to b/w on their regular camera (the main reason you seem to think a mono is worth buying). But at least I get it - these things are subjective. 

I can satisfy client's color requirements because I have a camera that shoots color...that also seems self evident. My clients don't have the resolution needs that I require for some of my project work. Some of these questions seem a bit strange. 

Edited May 1, 2023 by pgh

[01af]

vor 59 Minuten schrieb pgh:

A converted M10 file falls short of what I use for some prints.

Okay.

A Leica M Monochrom is an utterly required tool for anyone who has requirements to image quality similar to pgh's. For normal people, an M Monochrom is just GAS ... except when black-and-white photography is your only goal. But then, you'll need neither an M10-R nor an M11.

[UliWer]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb 01af:

similar to pgh's

Sorry for my ignorance: What is a pgh? 

Sorry again - I understood now: it was a referral to another user. 

Edited May 1, 2023 by UliWer

[didier]

I am going through the same kind of thinking right now.

My M10M is currently (and has been for 3 years) my only digital M. I love it and see no reason to 'upgrade' towards the M11M. I actually prefer the M10M shutter.

I am considering adding a color body. I am more of an early adopter in general, but I am seriously considering getting one of the last new M10-Rs (can be had for about 6000 Eur here, which is a lot less than a M11). I think it is interesting to have the possibility to use the same batteries and accessories for 2 cameras.

Another option would be to way 6+ months to get a M11-P.

Still thinking...

[Photon42]

On 4/25/2023 at 3:57 PM, twogun said:

I have an opportunity to purchase both an M10M and an M10R used. The cost for both equates to just about the same cost as a new M11

I photograph color, street photography mostly, but lately, I've been intrigued and have been doing more B&W.

Wondering, from a functionality and value standpoint if it's overkill to get both and dedicate the m10r for color and m10m for BW or instead get a single  M11 for about the same price?

Does anyone here have both or had a similar decision point? 

 

Your name is @twogun. Get the R and the M.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pgh]

46 minutes ago, 01af said:

Okay.

A Leica M Monochrom is an utterly required tool for anyone who has requirements to image quality similar to pgh's. For normal people, an M Monochrom is just GAS ... except when black-and-white photography is your only goal. But then, you'll need neither an M10-R nor an M11.

By your standards any Leica is just GAS when a Canon would more than suffice. Which, fine. But really, you could stop speaking in such concrete terms about who needs what exactly. I'm not a fan of unnecessary consumption and the need to have the latest and greatest by any means. We could all do more being happy with what we have, but there are still some people who run into some situations where marginal differences in tools have meaningful implications for their work and well...we can't always know those. 

Edited May 1, 2023 by pgh

[01af]

vor 45 Minuten schrieb pgh:

I'm not a fan of unnecessary consumption ...

But that is my impression exactly. Sorry if I got your intents, purposes, and requirements wrong. Maybe you could elaborate why a B/W picture converted from M10-R or M11 wouldn't meet your clients' expectations ...