Shooting full frame with APS-C lens?

[dpitt]

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I could not find something about this subject, so here we go.

I understand that most lenses designed for T and CL will not cover a FF image area. That is no issue for me. I just wonder if there is a way to make my SL (typ 601) shoot in FF mode when such a T, TL or CL lens is mounted?

It should probably be able to shoot 1:1 format with about 22 mm sides on the sensor, so that is almost the same as a 1:1 shot with FF lenses. Maybe some lenses will even go further than that without to much vignetting. All I want is to decide about the crop I want with these lenses (in PP) and be not forced to crop to APS-C as it is now.

Edited April 24, 2023 by dpitt

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[jaapv]

Simple- not an option in L mount.  The camera will always switch to APS. 

[dpitt]

11 hours ago, jaapv said:

Simple- not an option in L mount.  The camera will always switch to APS. 

So it is a commercial decision from Leica to prohibit use as FF?

[jaapv]

No. A technical decision to use the lenses as designed. Edges and corners would be inferior optically. If  the decision were commercial they would have blocked all use of the lenses. But it is Leica’s policy to offer as much compatibility as possible. See the options of adapting lenses to different mounts. 

[pgk]

11 minutes ago, jaapv said:

No. A technical decision to use the lenses as designed. Edges and corners would be inferior optically. If  the decision were commercial they would have blocked all use of the lenses. But it is Leica’s policy to offer as much compatibility as possible. See the options of adapting lenses to different mounts. 

Whilst broadly accurate, I do use the Canon 60 macro EFS lens on full frame Canon. Canon too disable the ability to use an EFS smaller format lens on full frame cameras, but by using a 12mm extension tube this is itself disabled and the lens can be used of FF and coverage is sufficient for high quality macro imagery; from 40cm to greater than 1:1. It was a Canon employee in the US who gave out this information and the image quality is good so Canon are obviously happy to suggest this. I doubt that an automatic, function preserving extension tube is available for L mount (I might be wrong though) but if one is then it would be worth trying on the 60 macro which might well work effectively at close range. Other lenses will probably have insufficient image circle to cover full frame even at their closest focus distances.

[jaapv]

Yes, and some R lenses work adequately on the S in practice.  However I doubt whether the MTF curves would be a something that the lens designer would want to see. 

I once managed to adapt a 16 mm movie lens (Kinoptic Tegea 9.8 /1.8) to the M8. It nearly made the corners, so I had to stretch it a bit in Photoshop.

[01af]

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Just speculating: It might possibly work to press the lens-release button or, if that doesn't do the trick, turn the lens away just a bit from the regular position in the bayonet mount so it doesn't properly click into place. This would prevent the camera from recognizing the lens—and, of course, will also disable aperture control and auto-focus ... but you may be able to take a picture regardless. Be careful not to drop the lens!

[dpitt]

20 hours ago, jaapv said:

No. A technical decision to use the lenses as designed. Edges and corners would be inferior optically. If  the decision were commercial they would have blocked all use of the lenses. But it is Leica’s policy to offer as much compatibility as possible. See the options of adapting lenses to different mounts. 

I understand that technically, most APS-C lenses will not cover full frame But some simple math tells me that we are missing out here when using these lenses on FF sensors. All of these lenses project a  circular image at least 31.5 mm and hold a rectangle of 25.1×16.7 mm (APS-C size). This also holds a 22.3x22.3 square. The square can hold almost 20% more pixels than the rectangle, so you could crop some 12MP from the FF i.s.o. only 10MP now. And all this with the same amount of vignetting as on their native sensor.

If you would crop 1:1 from the FF, you would get 16 MP max out of the FF (24MP) and you can get 12 MP from a TL lens.  For someone who likes to shoot in square format the FF crop would only hold 33% more pixels. This is the same as using a 1,15 crop factor lens in rectangle formats. Of course, on the SL2 you would get twice the MP count, so around  24MP for the TL square crop. And possibly most of the lenses would make it to the 34 mm  circle without much issues, so then a FF square crop would be possible.

So at least for people who like to work in square format we are missing out.

For lenses using a square sunhood, this will not work of course.

Edited April 26, 2023 by dpitt

[01af]

vor einer Stunde schrieb dpitt:

All of these lenses project a  circular image at least 31.5 mm and hold a rectangle of 16.7 × 25.1 mm (APS-C size).

Actually, the TL lenses' image circle is 28.35 mm, and the digital APS-C image size is 15.7 × 23.6 mm ... and even smaller in other digital APS-C cameras. The biggest square you could stuff into that circle is 20.05 × 20.05 mm.

You mustn't confuse digital APS-C with the original APS film formats.

[dkCambridgeshire]

On 4/25/2023 at 9:25 AM, pgk said:

Whilst broadly accurate, I do use the Canon 60 macro EFS lens on full frame Canon. Canon too disable the ability to use an EFS smaller format lens on full frame cameras, but by using a 12mm extension tube this is itself disabled and the lens can be used of FF and coverage is sufficient for high quality macro imagery; from 40cm to greater than 1:1. It was a Canon employee in the US who gave out this information and the image quality is good so Canon are obviously happy to suggest this. I doubt that an automatic, function preserving extension tube is available for L mount (I might be wrong though) but if one is then it would be worth trying on the 60 macro which might well work effectively at close range. Other lenses will probably have insufficient image circle to cover full frame even at their closest focus distances.

L Mount VILTROX extension tubes are available but when used on my SL 601 with the SL 24-90mm, the camera immediately generated the message, "LENS UPDATE IN PROGRESS" (or a very similar message) plus a 'revolving 'ball' which, with the message, continued for what appeared to be 'an eternity' ... so decided to 'abort' and turned the camera off ... whence the message and revolving ball continued to show on the monitor.  Battery removal eventually remedied the anomaly. I have not used the tubes again for fear of a more serious malfunction. SL cameras' electronics  have been 'fried' when using third party lens adapters.  

[AZN]

FWIW Sony A7Rii and A7Riv allow you shoot APSC lenses with full-frame enabled. So it is possible, just not on Leica L.

I find it handy when using the Sony 24mm GM lens: 24mm full-frame and 36mm (equivalent) APSC cropped - just by pressing the custom button on the side of the lens.

[Anakronox]

19 hours ago, AZN said:

FWIW Sony A7Rii and A7Riv allow you shoot APSC lenses with full-frame enabled. So it is possible, just not on Leica L.

I find it handy when using the Sony 24mm GM lens: 24mm full-frame and 36mm (equivalent) APSC cropped - just by pressing the custom button on the side of the lens.

Hate to be “that guy” but this is not the same scenario as what the OP requested.  Here you’re taking a full frame lens on a full frame sensor, and applying an in-camera crop mode to simulate shooting the lens on an APS-C body/sensor. 
 

Unless I’m completely mistaken about the 24mm GM lens and it’s not a full frame lens.   Please correct me if I’m wrong. 

[AZN]

10 hours ago, Anakronox said:

Hate to be “that guy” but this is not the same scenario as what the OP requested.

Ahem, my remark with prefixed with a "FWIW".

My point was that some camera systems do allow switching between APSC and full-frame.  Leica L doesn't.

There was a general implication in the thread that it's a kind of pointless thing. I wanted to note that sometimes it can acually be quite useful.

[jaapv]

You can indeed switch between APS and FF on Sony cameras but only if a FF lens is mounted. If you mount an APS lens it will crop down automatically. Just like Leica. 
https://www.sonyalphalab.com/guides/sony-lenses-a-mount-guide/

[AZN]

This is getting off-topic, but my Sony E 16-55mm f/2.8 G lens, which is an APSC lens, can switch between APSC and full-frame on my A7RIV, with a subsequent blurry black border around the frame edge when the full frame is activated.

Not much use to me, but possible nevertheless.

Edited April 28, 2023 by AZN

[jaapv]

In that case the site I linked to is wrong…

[helged]

30 minutes ago, AZN said:

This is getting off-topic, but my Sony E 16-55mm f/2.8 G lens, which is an APSC lens, can switch between APSC and full-frame on my A7RIV, with a subsequent blurry black border around the frame edge when the full frame is activated.

Not much use to me, but possible nevertheless.

...something Leica - I imagine - would never allow.

[AZN]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

In that case the site I linked to is wrong…

No. They talk about A-mount lenses, which is the original Minolta mount that Sony acquired for their initial DSLRs.

You’ll notice that my posts above talk about the more modern GM and E lenses, which require the E mount used by current Sony mirrorless camera bodies (eg. the A7RIV I mentioned above).

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by AZN

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[jaapv]

Whatever, if it does not cover FF like post  #15 mentions it is useless anyway. 

[odub1]

On 4/28/2023 at 3:21 PM, jaapv said:

Whatever, if it does not cover FF like post  #15 mentions it is useless anyway. 

It would be very useful for video on lumix because the e-stabilisation on the “high setting” crops in as much as aps-c does… so you would have the occasional blurred corner in videos which is absolutely fine.