Leitz delivery ledger - delivery dates?

[Anbaric]

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I'm curious about the delivery dates in the Leitz ledgers. In a previous thread, there is an extract of the ledger from 1939:

The third column is labelled 'Datum der Lieferung', which I assume is the delivery date you get if you ask Leica when your camera was originally delivered. But is this the date of dispatch, or perhaps the estimated arrival date, or even the date of receipt confirmed by the customer? There is in this example another date, stamped rather than written, in the first column before the serial number. In the excerpt this is usually earlier than, sometimes equal to (e.g. some cameras from 20.6.39, delivered to London), but never later than the Datum der Lieferung. What does this date represent?

My interest was sparked by the history of one of my own cameras, which was 'delivered' to London in mid-August 1939, only a couple of weeks before the war would stop all trade between Germany and the UK (or perhaps even closer to this hardest of deadlines if the date records the camera's dispatch and shipment took several days). I wonder when the last known pre-war shipments were to London or to other destinations in Allied countries?

[luigi bertolotti]

1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

I'm curious about the delivery dates in the Leitz ledgers. In a previous thread, there is an extract of the ledger from 1939:

The third column is labelled 'Datum der Lieferung', which I assume is the delivery date you get if you ask Leica when your camera was originally delivered. But is this the date of dispatch, or perhaps the estimated arrival date, or even the date of receipt confirmed by the customer? There is in this example another date, stamped rather than written, in the first column before the serial number. In the excerpt this is usually earlier than, sometimes equal to (e.g. some cameras from 20.6.39, delivered to London), but never later than the Datum der Lieferung. What does this date represent?

 

By logic, the first date at right is a stamp by the manufacturing dept ("item built"), and the handwritten is the delivery ("out from factory") ; of course, this can be later, expecially when the body was ordered with some other item (be it a lens, a bag, or both... a single order code could mean 2,3 or more items from manufacturing dept., plus of course the proper packaging)

 

[Anbaric]

43 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

By logic, the first date at right is a stamp by the manufacturing dept ("item built"), and the handwritten is the delivery ("out from factory") ; of course, this can be later, expecially when the body was ordered with some other item (be it a lens, a bag, or both... a single order code could mean 2,3 or more items from manufacturing dept., plus of course the proper packaging)

Yes, it's understandable there would often be a significant delay between a manufacturing and a shipping date. I can also imagine that a camera might be shipped the same day it was officially 'complete'. It seems less likely (though not impossible) it would arrive in London on that 'build date', and as some of the examples have identical stamped and 'Lieferung' dates, that lends weight to the theory that the latter refers to when the shipping process began, rather than when it ended. Does anyone familiar with the ledgers know for sure, or can a German speaker comment on exactly what 'Datum der Lieferung' is likely to refer to in this context?

Edited April 17, 2023 by Anbaric

[jerzy]

Delivery ledger book (Versandbuch) was maintained and kept in shipping department (whatever the correct name is). Datum der Lieferung is the date when the camera was shipped, left the stock. The first date is, I believe the date when camera was taken into delivery stock (in other words, as Luigi wrote - when camera left  manufacturing).  I came accross this first date when when analysing IIId variants (Vidom 120 from 2020). Sometimers there were just few days difference between entry and shipping, very often weeks or few month, but for some IIId (IIId was a special case, I believe) there were years until in May 1945 there were shipped. Stock entry date was not recorded for earlier cameras (at least mid 30-ties) and later, after 1946.
The last what I have seen was for last IIIc stepper (397601-3) and it was 1946.
It is very well possible that I am not quite correct when they started with quit with stock entry date, I have copies of just few pages of delivery ledger.

[willeica]

The delivery book posted by Dunk in 2018 is a lot more detailed than earlier ones. See below delivery register covering 68952 an engraved II Model D which is in my collection 

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The following is what I got from the Leica Archives about 5 years ago

Modell: Leica II Model D

Seriennummer:78952

Ausgeliefert am:25.04.1932

Ausgeliefert an: Pollock in London

Auftrags.-Nr.: 2590

'Auftrags' means order. I also know that Pollocks in Dublin ordered via the catalogue of Leitz UK in Mortimer Street in London as I have a copy of a catalogue which was used, so that sorts out the 2590 number. There are no dates on the left hand side of the book which I handled myself at the archives. The date 25.4.32 has to be the date that the camera left Wetzlar as it had to go through London for an onward journey to Dublin which would have taken some time. The order 2590 included 78956 which was going to the same destination as part of the same order on the same date 25.4.32. The terms 'Ausgeliefert am' and 'Ausgeliefert an' mean 'delivered on' and 'delivered' to respectively, but given the way that other orders are written in eg. the first one to Toronto, it is obvious that this ledger was filled in as the orders were leaving Wetzlar and not when they reached their final destinations. Toronto would probably have taken even longer to deliver to than London or Dublin. 

I find it interesting that the people in Wetzlar knew about Pollock being the final vendor. A few people have asked about the engraving (or stamping - Jerzy is the expert on that) and whether it was done in Wetzlar, London or Dublin. All I know is that in the 1930s a lot of things were engraved. A prominent Dublin jeweller told me that in the early 1930s there could have been up to 50 engravers working on Grafton Street or streets off. 

William

William 

[wizard]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb luigi bertolotti:

By logic, the first date at right is a stamp by the manufacturing dept ("item built"), and the handwritten is the delivery ("out from factory")

 

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Anbaric:

or can a German speaker comment on exactly what 'Datum der Lieferung' is likely to refer to in this context?

Here you go, I as a German native speaker second what Luigi has said above. The stamped date will most likely be the date of manufacturing (or in stock date, which would correspond to the manufacturing date assuming that finished cameras would go right into stock), whereas the date indicated in the column entitled "Datum der Lieferung" indicates the shipping date, that is, the date when a particular item was shipped from the Leitz factory to a recipient. In theory, "Datum der Lieferung" could also mean the date when a particular item was handed over to a customer, be it a shop or individual person, but since Leitz would usually not have known when a particular item was handed over to a customer, and further since we are talking of factory records here, I believe that latter interpretation may safely be ruled out.