Noctilux as a general lens? (Yet another noctilux thread)

[marknorton]

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I cannot recommend using the Noctilux as an everyday lens; too long, too heavy, too slow to use and too likely to disappoint due to focussing errors.

 

I'd recommend a 28mm Summicron, 35mm or 50mm Summilux as the best lenses to start with.

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[tom0511]

Oh yes... And i have thought about the 40D and 400D and the cameras in between the old 300D and the 5D. They are great cameras. But they are all variations of the original 300D in many ways.

 

I want to take the next step (though i admit the "next step" in this case is more like a long jump on the moon).

 

Reading your post: you have allready decided you want the M8. My feeling is that you will love it. You know that a 5D +35/1.4 or 50/1.2 can do beautiful things as well, but you want a M8. For the feel and unobstrusive way and simplicity. So go for it.

Now you just have to decide which lens, Noctilux, Summilux 50 or maybe 35/1.4asph....or if street is your think you might also want to consider a 28/2.0asph.

Go, get the stuff, every day you wait you are not able to take images with it.

[Singlemalt]

This is one picture that I took some time ago. It's one of my wife playing with my neice and nephew. I was sitting down on the back verandah and the sun was setting. I had my canon 1.8 fully open and iso was greater than 800 from memory. I really stuggled with the light.

 

In the end I actually like this shot because the kids forgot that I was there after a while and after a lot of work in photoshop I think I made it work. It doesn't have the pizzaz that I've seen from some of the shots I've seen here - but I like it. It was a moment that meant something to me.

 

Its the easiest shot at hand I can show of the type of photography I like.

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[StS]

May I bring another perspective in, which is M8 and a 50/1.4 Summilux?

 

I'm afraid to add some confusion - however, what about a Summicron 50/2.0? There is actually not much difference in speed between 1.0 and 2.0 and the (current) Summicron has quite a reputation even at 2.0. Depth of focus is pretty small at 2.0 as well.

 

It is also much smaller and lighter...

[AlanG]

This is one picture that I took some time ago. It's one of my wife playing with my neice and nephew. I was sitting down on the back verandah and the sun was setting. I had my canon 1.8 fully open and iso was greater than 800 from memory. I really stuggled with the light.

 

 

So what are you hoping to improve or do differently? Why not practice holding the camera steady, pressing the shutter release gently, and try to shoot more of your photos in brighter (or more interesting) light?

 

I remember hearing Victor Skrebneski speak and when asked how he does lighting on location, he said, "I look for the location that has the lighting."

[Jamie Roberts]

So what are you hoping to improve or do differently? Why not practice holding the camera steady, pressing the shutter release gently, and try to shoot more of your photos in brighter (or more interesting) light?

 

I remember hearing Victor Skrebneski speak and when asked how he does lighting on location, he said, "I look for the location that has the lighting."

 

Alan, that's a great quote, and one I will memorise! And you're right for Naresh too! Great advice.

 

Naresh, you *had* some nice light for that shot! And it's totally charming, too. They don't call it the "golden hour" for nothing you know

 

But you need to learn to bring out the best in your shots. Changing cameras won't change the fact that you need to do some stuff to digital shots to make them good. I'd be looking at some books on PS post processing first.

 

I hope you don't mind, but here's your shot with just a single curve adjustment, a dodge and burn on that adjustment, and some sharpening. It looks a lot better to me, but of course this was very quick (less than a minute) in PS.

 

If you wanted less noise you could use Noise Ninja or something (and this is just the JPEG, from a RAW file I'm sure you could get great results more easily).

 

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[Singlemalt]

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WOW...

 

Its awe-inspiring and depressing that you did that it a few minutes!

 

Ok - my post processing skills need more work. Thanks for showing me what you can do. If have read a few magazines dedicated to photoshop to try and improve my skills - but its hard to know what more can be done when I can't compare it to a "perfect" standard. If that makes sense.

 

My wife has done 2 photography courses here in Brisbane. The first one was aweful - $200 to show what an f-stop means - and although the second one was good it really didn't sound like it added much more to what I know. Maybe I should look into a photoshop course. I'm a bit leary of some of these courses as they may be all well and good but they may not actually address my needs.

 

Do you think I should purchase noise ninja? Is the pro one much different from the home version?

 

As for practising holding the camera steady - well that's as good as I can get it im afraid. I tried splinting it with my leg, controlled breathing and just rapid bursting. I had so many shots that I had to throw away in that sitting. I do like that shot but I will try to digg up some more shots. Shots that made me feel that I had reached the limitation with the 300D/1.8 combo. Trust me ... I have much worse. I'll post some of them soon.

 

Another thing I was hoping to show from that shot is the type of shot I like. That's one thing I was hoping the m8 would offer me more than the 5D - allowing me to melt more in the background. I realise a lot of melting into the background can be personality as well. I have seen a lot of skill wedding photographers really choreograph a scene and make people feel so at ease. But no matter what I do with my personality I can't melt away with a flash (let's not talk about the diffuser... ugh).

 

I was recently at my mother-in-law's birthday party. My wife had organised it at one of the large restaurant/bars there. Essentially we had a rather large room for us only. It was dark - very dark with manly candlelight and mood lights setting the scene. She had bought the camera equipment and I arrived late - can't remember why. I was on call and someone probably tried to die on me as usual. She didn't bring the 50 prime. I had a 28-135 f/3.5-5.6 IS and a flash. No matter how I tried to bounce it or position the flash I just kept casting shadows I don't want or destroying the natural hues that I really wanted to keep. And the autofocus didn't work despite the assist from the flash - and I couldn't appreciate that fully on the LCD until I got it home and looked at it on the computer. She had to through a lot of my work out the window because it just wasn't in focus. It's what prompted me to get a diffuser. It works well in more formal situations but its not the type of photos I can just take on the street or the incidental stuff. Too much attention.

 

It really annoyed me that what I thought was in focus on the lcd wasn't. I'm obviously going to have to zoom up on most of my shots but it's frustrating as the camera is slow and I don't want to keep people waiting. The 50/1.8 would have made a difference I know but I'm just getting so frustrated with the 300D in low light in general.

 

You've all talked me out of the noct by the way. Its obviously too big a hammer for a job where I need to place the nails more accurately. I am still hoping the m8 will be a good option for me - no?

 

Thanks for the ongoing input. I wish I could rename this thread!

 

SM.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped} But no matter what I do with my personality I can't melt away with a flash (let's not talk about the diffuser... ugh).

{snipped} No matter how I tried to bounce it or position the flash I just kept casting shadows I don't want or destroying the natural hues that I really wanted to keep. And the autofocus didn't work despite the assist from the flash - and I couldn't appreciate that fully on the LCD until I got it home and looked at it on the computer. She had to through a lot of my work out the window because it just wasn't in focus. It's what prompted me to get a diffuser. It works well in more formal situations but its not the type of photos I can just take on the street or the incidental stuff. Too much attention.

 

It really annoyed me that what I thought was in focus on the lcd wasn't.{snipped}.

{snipped}

 

Ok, so now you're getting into some ground where the M8 might be useful, but you need to try one out in low-light to see how you do.

 

I find it much easier to focus an M camera in low light than any other type of camera. I use a magnifier on the M8 but none on the m6 or m3 (which doesn't need it).

 

So focus was one thing that drove me to the M8 and to rangefinders in general.

 

As for flash, well, it's tough. I use it, and like it, but it's tough. It's counterintuitive and requires a lot of practice to work well.

 

But that's another reason I thought the 40D might be good, since people are saying the controls and menus are more like a 1 series than a 30d... it's really easy to mix flash and ambient (with a Canon ETTL flash) on the 1 series bodies; I expect the 40d to be the same. It's supposed to have improved AF as well.

 

The 5d is good, but I find it seeking for focus in the near-dark too.

 

Anyway, regardless of what body you get--the M8 is wonderful to focus for me--you need to try it in those hard conditions if that's what you like to shoot.

 

As for Photoshop, this is going to sound strange, but there aren't, to my mind, a lot of really good beginner books out there; colour correction is tricky.

 

So to go "right into the deep end" so to speak, I would recommend Dan Margulis's Professional Photoshop: the Classic Guide to Color Correction

 

Amazon.com: Professional Photoshop: The Classic Guide to Color Correction: Books: Dan Margulis

 

You will probably get better results over a month or two with a couple of chapters in there than you would from a 100 PS courses.

 

Oh--and Noise Ninja is brilliant, IMO. I don't even do that much with it, but since it works on individual channels, it can really save your bacon. I don't know what the difference is between the versions, though. I just use the pro version...

 

Good luck!

[carstenw]

There is actually not much difference in speed between 1.0 and 2.0

 

I don't want to argue against a 50 Cron, but this isn't true. There is a factor 4x difference, with respect to light, or two stops. This could easily be the difference between a sharp image and one blurred due to camera movement. The difference between f/1 and f/1.2 is not much, but even from f/1 to f/1.4 is enough of a difference to change buying decisions, for the person who needs it.

[delander †]

Hi Naresh,

 

Like many here I have a 5D and the M8. The cameras are so different in concept, size, operation. I now only use the 5D with my 200 and 300 mm telephotos.

 

So my advice is go out and get that M8, but with a word of caution. Buy only one lens, perhaps a 35mm. Resist the immediate urge to indulge in lenses. When you are sure that you like the M8 way of photography and are comfortable with the camera, its advantages and limitations, thats the time to expand the lens collection, and think carefully about it!

 

If it concerns you, the 10mp of the M8 easily equals the 12+ of the 5D.

 

Good luck,

 

Jeff

[kevin m]

I can't help but wonder if both the M8 and the 5D, as well as the Noctilux, are soon to be rendered anachronisms, from the standpoint of low-light capture, anyway. Nikon's new D3, in pre-production testing, is said to be useable up to iso 12,800, with iso 25,600 available in a pinch. The reviewer in this link: http://www.daveblackphotography.com/workshop/11-2007.htm said that iso 6,400 on the D3 equals iso 400 on the D2x in image quality. That's quite a step up from the iso 1,600 of the 5D, though I imagine the soon-to-come replacement for that camera will show improvement, too.

 

If you can shoot at iso 12,800 (please see the example pics in the link) then, outside of lens signature and shallow DOF, what's the point of using a superspeed lens?

[tgray]

I'm not one to really comment, since I have neither a 5D or an M8, but I do have a Canon 300D. The camera I went to from that was an M6 - I wanted to try out the rangefinder experience and am happy I did. I'd either go for an M6 classic (~$1000) or a Bessa. Then pick up a 50 summicron or a Zeiss, or if you want to spend a little more, a 35. If you aren't feeling up to doing your own B&W (which is where the real magic is - Tri-X at 1250 or 1600 in Diafine for low light), then pick up either some Ilford XP2 or Kodak BW400CN or a color film of your choice and go to town. You should be able to get out the door for around $1500 with an M6+lens. If you want cheaper, get the Bessa and some of the CV lenses, or mix Leica and CV.

 

If you don't like it, you should be able to sell with little loss. If you do like it, and don't want the M6 anymore, sell it, keep the lens, and buy your M8. The beauty of C-41 film processing now is that for a bout $3-4, you can get it developed in about an hour and get a CD of scans (no prints). If you like a picture, take the file and print it...

 

I also went for a Canon 1V, but I like film. They both have their uses. The 1V + 50/1.4 + 28/1.8 are great for concerts. At some point I'd like to get a 100 or 135 to fill out those needs. The M6 + 35 + 50 does pretty much everything else...

 

I think the other advice of either getting an 400D or a 40D is good as well - compared to the 300D, they are a lot nicer, the 400D being smaller and quieter, and the 40D being more capable.

 

Figure out if you really want to do it with a rangefinder before you go spend $10,000, or even $5000. You can give it a trial for a lot less...

[Singlemalt]

OMG the D3 is amazing.

 

Looking at the D3 now makes me realise what I was looking forward to in the m8. I'm just tired of all the technology and information that gets thrown at me. I can't believe it has 51 focus points!

 

I am/was looking forward to using the viewfinder. I want to have the fun of focussing and not some computer. I don't even use half the menu stuff on the 300D - just ISO, apeture, speed and RAW mainly.

 

But it is hard argue for the m8 on low light alone seeing some of the external link pictures that the D3 can do at insane ISO's.

 

I have considered getting a M6 to get more of a feel for the rangefinder experience but I just don't think I can mentally get around processing and sorting film. Maybe I'm too generation X. Or Y. Or whatever.

 

I remember in school taking pictures, developing them in the dark room and then printing them. It was fun and I would love to do it again but work and everything else gets in the way these days. The immediate feedback from digital is appealing.

 

But I hear what you are saying.

 

The price of the m8 here in Australia has (mind-boggingly) gone up to $7300 AUS - though I can get it for about $6800. Although I am in the fortunate position where I can actually pay this amount for a camera without causing any real financial harm - it still is a lot of money.

 

I was hoping to get the camera soon so I can practise for my european trip next year (July) but I'm thinking of holding off for the moment for now....

 

SM.

[Jamie Roberts]

51 focus points? LOL!!! 51 new places to backfocus

 

Just kidding. I'm sure it's an awesome camera, and I'm interested in it as technology, but not as a camera.

 

You should rent an M8 for awhile if you can. See if you like the experience and the files. If you're a rangefinder guy, you'll know in the first couple of weeks, I think.

[Singlemalt]

I wish I could rent one but Brisbane just doesn't have the population like Sydney or Melbourne to accomodate renting digital rangefinders.

 

I'm having a chat with my local leica dealer to see what can be arranged.

 

Thanks.

[Hacker]

I was forced to move from the Canon 5D to the M8 (persistent Tennis Elbow problems). If you want low-light photography, an Olympus E-3 with a lens like the Leica 25mm f/1.4 would be an alternative. The camera has built in IS and is great with high ISO and not as big as the 5D or the Nikon D3! And it is available.

[JBA]

Not that I have the least stake in what you end up buying, but I read with relief that you've been talked out of the Noctilux. Have you seen many images shot with it? At the risk of telling you something you already know, I found this site linking to sample images quite helpful in understanding just how quirky a lens it is.

 

Leica FAQ - Slave to the 50mm Noctilux

 

I should think the range of 1.4 ASPH lenses from 35 to 75 would be a much more attractive proposition for the kind of photography you're talking about.

 

By the way, I'm savoring a Talisker 10 yr. neat at the moment.

 

Cheers!

[kevin m]

I'm sure it's an awesome camera, and I'm interested in it as technology, but not as a camera.

 

Me either. Too big. I don't like lugging around the 'pro' sized DSLR's. But the sensor technology really intrigues me, as this will soon enough creep down market. That's why I'm wondering if a sensor that delivers 400iso quality at 6400iso will make lenses like the Noctilux anachronistic, from a light gathering standpoint, if not lens signature.

 

You should rent an M8 for awhile if you can. See if you like the experience and the files. If you're a rangefinder guy, you'll know in the first couple of weeks, I think.

 

I shot weddings with two M6TTL bodies until not too long ago, so, YEAH, I like rangefinders. I'm a part-timer and I don't write off my gear, so the M8's too pricey for me, since it would be a specialty camera. I think I'll wait until the M8 MkII comes along with a CMOS sensor that can really shoot in the dark. I'll either pony up for that, or pick up used M8 at a more 'Canon-like' used DSLR price.

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Hallo,

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