m11 camera shake VS m10-r

[billm212]

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22 minutes ago, SrMi said:

You need a very, very stable tripod to mitigate the shutter shock (caused by the first curtain). Typically, shutter shock is visible even on a tripod. Therefore, you need either EFCS or the electronic shutter to eliminate shutter shock completely.

Before mirrorless cameras, we had mirror-slap issues. Even on a tripod, we needed to raise the mirror before triggering the shutter.

 

 

Shutter shock is highly mitigated by slower shutter speeds.  It is physics, pure and simple - the vibration caused by shutter shock dies down and is largely absent during the time the image is formed in the sensor if the shutter is open long enough. Every test ever done shows that. There are degrees of it and use of a tripod greatly reduces it. We’re talking here about a guy wanting to determine the reason or reasons, his shots are not sharp, and it is surprising, that you are essentially denying that using a tripod is not a much better way than simply picking up a lens and shooting it. I have never, ever read a serious lens test that was done handheld, as the variables are just too great compared to using a tripod. And your contention that a very stable tripod is needed belies the very idea that handholding a camera is sufficient to test a lens. There’s a world of difference between a good tripod and no tripod, one that even IS is not sufficient to overcome for purposes of testing a lens. 

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[SrMi]

1 hour ago, billm212 said:

Shutter shock is highly mitigated by slower shutter speeds.  It is physics, pure and simple - the vibration caused by shutter shock dies down and is largely absent during the time the image is formed in the sensor if the shutter is open long enough. Every test ever done shows that. There are degrees of it and use of a tripod greatly reduces it. 

Yes, the shutter shock is relevant only in a certain shutter speed range (maybe 1/30 to 1/250?).

I see. With a tripod, you mitigate the shutter shock by using a shutter speed slower to make the shutter shock irrelevant. Of course, it is not always possible to make a shutter speed slow enough when on a tripod. That is the same as saying that high ISO mitigates shutter shock as it allows faster shutter speeds where shutter shock is irrelevant as well.

2 hours ago, billm212 said:

We’re talking here about a guy wanting to determine the reason or reasons, his shots are not sharp, and it is surprising, that you are essentially denying that using a tripod is not a much better way than simply picking up a lens and shooting it. I have never, ever read a serious lens test that was done handheld, as the variables are just too great compared to using a tripod. And your contention that a very stable tripod is needed belies the very idea that handholding a camera is sufficient to test a lens. There’s a world of difference between a good tripod and no tripod, one that even IS is not sufficient to overcome for purposes of testing a lens. 

That is unrelated to the shutter shock discussed. I agree that a tripod will always produce equal or better sharpness than shooting handheld. However, neither shutter shock nor mirror slap can be eliminated by using a standard tripod. I always test for shutter shock using a tripod, which eliminates the handholding variable.

[Leslie22]

I had the same frustration when I bought my M11 , it drove me nuts too.

Decided to move to 1/250th as my default shutter speed with 35 & 50 lens (from 60 & 125th)

End of frustration , will still go to 180 or 125 BUT , with much care.

Hope this helps 

 

[IkarusJohn]

On 4/12/2023 at 1:14 PM, Jeff S said:

Indeed, yet you failed to address the key issue.  Read above.

Jeff

Sadly, I have read above and most of it seems to be wide of the issue; at least, wide of the issue that the opening poster raised.

There are potentially two causes of blurred images (leaving out poor focus) - poor technique or something inherent in the camera (shutter shock, mostly).  The first issue has been done to death for many years, particularly in relation to increased MP.  I think we have all heard about increased magnification and pixel peeping.  Most accept (or at least I do) that with increased MP it makes sense to move to higher shutter speeds and watch your technique.  That doesn't mean you can't take great images at slower speeds.  That has always been the case - you just need to be more careful.

Do you need to go looking for it?  No, but people seem to be noticing it.

I don't read that as the issue here.  The OP was questioning whether or not there was an issue with the camera.  We have been here before too - notably with the d800e, at 1/250 & 1/500 shutter speeds.  That camera, in my hands anyway, had shutter shock.  Not so bad at slower speeds, and almost non-existent at higher speeds, but there is no doubt it was there.  I seem to recall other high(ish) MP cameras exhibited the same problem.  Not motion blur detected at 100% peeping (it's still 100%, regardless of the MP), but clear motion blur at specific shutter speeds.

The question is not the OP's technique, nor the 60MP sensor, but is the mechanical action of the shutter causing blur, and if so, at what speeds.  That needs careful, controlled testing which we haven't seen yet - at least, I haven't seen it.

To date, my perception is that Leica's shutters in the M cameras I have had, and in the SL, have been very well damped.

[Jeff S]

The OP never addressed, tested for or eliminated the issue discussed and recognized again here by me, 01af, Jaap, Jono, et.al., so we’ll never know if that was a factor. 
 

Jeff

Edited April 29, 2023 by Jeff S

[Photoworks]

it is pretty simple to me, M10-R and M11 are both the best shot at 250/s and above and no problem.

I have been scanning thousands of images from M6 and M7, and never know that they would show motion blur at 1/125 when holding still. But since I am looking at them on a big screen a 200%, I can say it is there!

[IkarusJohn]

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To be honest, I would only peep at that level if I intend to print large.

Edited April 29, 2023 by IkarusJohn

[BillCB]

I'm new to the M11 (I'm an MFDB guy) so I read this thread with some trepidation - and went off to check for myself. I used the 90 Apo Summicron ASPH and checked focus with the EVF..

The only blur I could find was camera shake from me. At 1/60th a few shots are blurred, others are perfect. At 1/30th I occasionally got a sharp shot. At higher speeds, no issues at all.

All this proves to me is that I'm not as young as I used to be. 50 years ago I could hand hold at 1/15 - not any more!