License the TL2

[AdamSinger]

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I have been in the Leica choir since the 70s, owned  most flavours of M, (exceptions are 8 and 11)  Q,  CL  and SL both film and digital.  My conclusions are subjective.  I had a Leica digital SL didn’t  like it .  Likewise the APSC CL . Loved the Q, but for me, and accept this is subjective the raison d’être of Leica are the monochroms. (gypsy women says an M11 ‘chrom is in my cards). Occasionally colour seeps into my life and needs recording . This means  another camera, a 2nd camera would be tiny,  fit into a shirt pocket, have  simple menus, and  can use M lenses. My TL2 is a work of art. It is  small and neater than my Fuji X100V , and if I need an EVF the  Visoflex works fine.  M10 Monochrom and TL2 are for me a perfect interoperable  travel outfit, but the TL2 is on borrowed time. However   APSC is not dead , Nikon, Canon, Fuji et al  are still developing and selling APSC cameras. I understand that for Leica  another product line involving a different size sensor is a distraction. So why doesn’t Leica license the TL2 form factor to Sigma or Panasonic , in the way that Minolta  improved and carried on  the CL as the CLE.  They may have tried  who knows? The business model of digital cameras is essentially subscription, every three years or so one upgrades to a new model. To make a metaphorical statement in film you own a camera in digital you lease it. I realise upgrading is an optional choice, but if  you don’t upgrade at some point you get punished as an owner of an M9 am highly aware of this. An APSC TL2 would upgrade every three years and by now could be at 40mega pixels a la the Fuji XT5. From a Leica perspective I would be locked into two subscription points  APSC and Monochrom, but I suspect that Fuji will  get my future APSC money that could have gone to Leica either directly or as a royalty. What I am looking for is not the speculation and opinion but an answer from some one who really knows their camera sector macro economics. If this has been done to death earlier, then my apologies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[M.piras]

I’m with you but what i understood is:

1) Leica do not produce any of the sensors or electronics the most of the model are Panasonic 

2) actually most of the TL lenses CC are either manufactured by Panasonic (also the glasses) 

3)may be in the near future Xiaomi will enter with his low quality, low cost electronics 

conclusion?

leica as we know is death (is a personal opinion) same happened to volvo and many other brands in mamy fields.  At the moment if you really want a new leica, you should go on the new M6 film camera. There is the only last german technology (i repeat is my opinion)

[rtai]

I am in a similar situation. Don’t like my SL2 and 24-90 zoom for the bulk and my phone is competent but lacking. I looked at used TL2 and CL at the Leica store and with one or two lenses and prices already approaching a new Q2. The 11-23 zoom is very nice though. So I ended up with an M8 again and it’ll do until used M10-P prices come down. Only 5% of my photography is color so buying into another system isn’t worth it for me. 

The definition of Leica to me means Leica optics. Let me put my money in the lenses as long as they work on whichever body available. Like you say the technology is temporary. 

Edited April 2, 2023 by rtai

[dkCambridgeshire]

1 hour ago, AdamSinger said:

I have been in the Leica choir since the 70s, owned  most flavours of M, (exceptions are 8 and 11)  Q,  CL  and SL both film and digital.  My conclusions are subjective.  I had a Leica digital SL didn’t  like it .  Likewise the APSC CL . Loved the Q, but for me, and accept this is subjective the raison d’être of Leica are the monochroms. (gypsy women says an M11 ‘chrom is in my cards). Occasionally colour seeps into my life and needs recording . This means  another camera, a 2nd camera would be tiny,  fit into a shirt pocket, have  simple menus, and  can use M lenses. My TL2 is a work of art. It is  small and neater than my Fuji X100V , and if I need an EVF the  Visoflex works fine.  M10 Monochrom and TL2 are for me a perfect interoperable  travel outfit, but the TL2 is on borrowed time. However   APSC is not dead , Nikon, Canon, Fuji et al  are still developing and selling APSC cameras. I understand that for Leica  another product line involving a different size sensor is a distraction. So why doesn’t Leica license the TL2 form factor to Sigma or Panasonic , in the way that Minolta  improved and carried on  the CL as the CLE.  They may have tried  who knows? The business model of digital cameras is essentially subscription, every three years or so one upgrades to a new model. To make a metaphorical statement in film you own a camera in digital you lease it. I realise upgrading is an optional choice, but if  you don’t upgrade at some point you get punished as an owner of an M9 am highly aware of this. An APSC TL2 would upgrade every three years and by now could be at 40mega pixels a la the Fuji XT5. From a Leica perspective I would be locked into two subscription points  APSC and Monochrom, but I suspect that Fuji will  get my future APSC money that could have gone to Leica either directly or as a royalty. What I am looking for is not the speculation and opinion but an answer from some one who really knows their camera sector macro economics. If this has been done to death earlier, then my apologies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Highly unlikely that Leica would want the TL2 or CL produced 'under licence' and even more unlikely that any other manufacturer would consider it a viable proposition. Developing a 40MP TL2 or CL is not just a matter of shoving a new sensor into the 'already obsolete' camera with no IBIS and no articulated monitor. 

[DenverSteve]

From a business standpoint, if there was any demand from other manufacturers, Leica would license, or share, almost anything.  Additionally, if I were a camera manufacturer, and I wanted a TL-type camera, I would just make one as there's no need to license anything unless you were going to use the Leica name which is unnecessary if you simply want the form.  The lens technology is already shared so the only thing to do would be to "copy" the body - if it were desired or functional.   Since no one has copied the design, there must be no need to do so.  The CL is a different animal entirely as Leica came up with the CL-type camera over a much longer time period and, for me, was/is a fantastic camera that feels like a camera, not like a characterless, machined slab of aluminium.  I really love using my CL alongside of my M11 and/or other Leicas. This is one of my favorite articles about the Leica APS-C cameras. 

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2019/03/leica-cl-review-the-perfect-travel-camera/

Edited April 7, 2023 by DenverSteve

[lct]

Indeed neither Leica nor Panasonic seems interested in APS-C so far and aside from esthetical considerations, the concept of the Sigma FPL looks far more advanced as a compact full-frame camera accepting APS-C lenses in crop mode.