A crossroads - Leica SL2 or a Fujifilm GFX 50SII????

[frame-it]

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52 minutes ago, BernardC said:

You won't find much usable difference in dynamic range.

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#FujiFilm GFX 100,FujiFilm GFX 50S II,Leica SL2

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[BernardC]

I don't agree with PtP's methodology, but they have the SL2 above 11 and the GFX below 12, which is a fraction of a stop, just like DxO. Neither site tells you about contrast and noise in the shadows, which is more relevant than signal level. 

[BernardC]

On a related note, Arri recently published a white paper on dynamic range:

https://www.arri.com/resource/blob/295460/e10ff8a5b3abf26c33f8754379b57442/2022-09-28-arri-dynamic-range-whitepaper-data.pdf

It goes into more detail about why a single number isn't enough.

[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, adelie said:

I will seek out an "excellent condition" second hand SL2 for now.

While you're at it, you might consider a lightly used X1Dii as well.  Not as versatile as the SL2, which I also own, but for landscape, the 'blad is fabulous and easily transported. Easily found in the 3K range or less these days.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I’ve not had the GFX50SII. But I have many cameras with the same sensor. Pentax 645Z, X1D, X1DII and 907x. I also have a GFX100S and a full set of Fuji GFX lenses. I’ve had my SL and SL2 since launch day(s).

Any one who’s used that 51MP sensor extensively knows that it produces much much more robust files than any current small format sensor. P2P measurements don’t show the differences adequately for this sensor, plain and simple (I don’t subscribe to their measuring methodology either. Equalising cameras at 8MP hides most of the differences.). The difference is stark. And that difference grows the longer the exposures get. More DR. Less noise. More file pliability. Better colour retention at high ISO’s. The camera has a tri-flip rear screen which is great.

The 51MP miniMF sensor is slow though. Read out times are poor. So the video is poor. Shooting speeds are methodical. AF is CDAF only and slower than the SL2 by some margin. The menus are encyclopaedic. The EVF is average at best.

The SL2 operates MUCH faster in every way than the 50SII. You have a MUCH wider selection of focal lengths (14-600). You have access to the sensational APO Summicrons. The high res shot mode, shared with the Panasonics, is the best there is currently. The VF, build and menus are much better. As is the joystick.

If you are a landscape specialist. Then I’d get the GFX. You’ll appreciate the improved file quality. But for everything else the SL2, by some distance. Most people don’t just shoot one thing, so you either get two systems or the one that’s better overall. That’s the SL2, for my money.

Also while the GFX sensor is better for landscapes the SL2 is still an excellent landscape camera. High res shot saves a normal single file as well as the high res one. The lenses are epic so you get tons of detail. It meters exposures to 30 minutes. LENR is selectable if you want to do your own noise reduction. Some of my favourite landscape shots have been shot on the SL2.

 

Gordon

[hansvons]

@adelie Good choice! Because you are also taking “proper” photos in a “proper” medium format, you know already the medium format experience, which digital medium format can’t reach by a large margin. 

In the photography section / Other, there’s a film thread with over 4,000 pages. I think it’s the most interesting image thread on these forums and a great opportunity to connect to others shooting the old way new, timeless stuff. Highly recommended.

[Chris Nebard]

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On 3/28/2023 at 1:57 AM, davidmknoble said:

@adelie, I use the Hasselblad 6x6 film bodies, party as a result of using the S system for about 5 years.  I love the medium format.  Honestly, the SL2 is not the best body for landsacpe, IMHO.  The dynamic range is inferior to the SL2-S.  The M11 (I know, weird) has the best dynamic range and pixel count of all but the S3 right now.  I love my Sl2-S and it really is a universal camera with adapters for all types of lenses (including my hasselblad V lenses coupled to an S-L adapter, and my Nikon AIS lenses).  

If you enjoy landscape, I would consider the Sl2-S and wait for the SL3.  It has to have a sensor closer to the M11 or S3.  Otherwise, I would consider the M11, it just wont fit all your lenses.

Just some thoughts.

Hi David,

Out of interest, which adapter do you use for your Nikkor ai/ais lenses? I have a few which I’d like to try on my SL2-s and to hear of someone’s user experience would be useful. 
Thanks 👍

[davidmknoble]

1 hour ago, Chris Nebard said:

Hi David,

Out of interest, which adapter do you use for your Nikkor ai/ais lenses? I have a few which I’d like to try on my SL2-s and to hear of someone’s user experience would be useful. 
Thanks 👍

Chris, I use the novaflex adapter, which has a ring that allows manual adjustment of the f/stop.  So, when looking through the sensor, you are looking through the stopped down lens.

I have used that adapter with the Nikon 500mm f/8 mirrored lens to photograph the moon and the solar eclipse with great results from the SL system. 

It is readily available, and this is the one I use (it has a strong mount to the SL camera, which is why I made this choice).  This is just one retailer that sells it…

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1103373-REG/novoflex_let_nik_lens_mount_adapter.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=ba_f1_lar&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A514&gclid=CjwKCAjw5pShBhB_EiwAvmnNV2n8RFSLjSmvjQrZNulpoV3tGwrHac-p7rP-qB-SYqZa0F0EuIOwXhoCK_EQAvD_BwE

 

[Chris Nebard]

1 minute ago, davidmknoble said:

Chris, I use the novaflex adapter, which has a ring that allows manual adjustment of the f/stop.  So, when looking through the sensor, you are looking through the stopped down lens.

I have used that adapter with the Nikon 500mm f/8 mirrored lens to photograph the moon and the solar eclipse with great results from the SL system. 

It is readily available, and this is the one I use (it has a strong mount to the SL camera, which is why I made this choice).  This is just one retailer that sells it…

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1103373-REG/novoflex_let_nik_lens_mount_adapter.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=ba_f1_lar&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A514&gclid=CjwKCAjw5pShBhB_EiwAvmnNV2n8RFSLjSmvjQrZNulpoV3tGwrHac-p7rP-qB-SYqZa0F0EuIOwXhoCK_EQAvD_BwE

 

Great advice David, thank you. 

[student]

On 3/30/2023 at 1:37 AM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I’ve not had the GFX50SII. But I have many cameras with the same sensor. Pentax 645Z, X1D, X1DII and 907x. I also have a GFX100S and a full set of Fuji GFX lenses. I’ve had my SL and SL2 since launch day(s).

 

@FlashGordonPhotography Pardon me for going a little offtrack, but given the breadth and depth of your experience, how would you rate the 907x viv a vis SL2S in terms of the parameters that you brought up in your post? 

I am undecided between the two but hampered much by my ignorance about these matters (which is just about complete), and by my limited experience of photography being confined to just fun stuff only. Any advice would therefore be most welcome

[Kristofferpaulsen]

I've not used the Fuji system myself, but I'm an SL2 shooter, and also have a Phase One iq3100 system, and have both XF and Cambo bodies. Here's my two cents..

Medium format is slower. That's a good and a bad thing. The SL allows me to blaze away a lot quicker. 

A few friends have and have had the GFX 100, some love it, some have sold it because they dont think the difference is discernible enough from their 35mm, and honestly I'm inclined to agree.. If I'm going to shoot medium format, I want it to be very different to the 35mm, and with the GFX being only slightly bigger sensor, I'd just go with the easier camera to use.. They're both fifty meg, the SL2 is a fantastic bit of kit, and I really enjoy using it, which I think is a pretty important factor (honestly, one of the main reasons I ditched Canon.. I want a system I actually want to get out of the bag, and not think of as just a thing i use for work).

When I shoot on my Phase, the resolution is kinda secondary to the feel of the images that that camera produces. You can zoom right into 100% and it looks just as good as it does at 16% or whatever. The SL2 is the only other camera I've used where I get the same feeling at 100%. My friend who ditched his GFX100 complained that he didnt like the files at 100%. 

I think the most important question for you is, which system will inspire you to take better pictures? Which one will provide the best path of least resistance to a great photo? What feels the best to use? Honestly, cameras are all great these days, they'll all take a great photo, what's most important is how you interact with it. As a co-worker said to a combative customer in a camera shop when I was working with him in 2000 when the guy was just being a dick "I guess it doesn't matter how good a camera they make, it all comes down to the hunk of meat hanging off the camera". Obviously it's a different context, but I think about that statement reasonably often (I wonder what happened to that guy..) when I get overly transfixed on equipment, and perhaps distracted from the important bits. I mean, I use my Q2 more than possibly I should, simply because it's easy and there's less obstacles, and i use the crop function too! What about the 100mp Phase One camera in the bag! Why aren't I using that? uhhhhh..

Feel free to take on board or disregard my two cents.. Hope you find a great rig!

[FlashGordonPhotography]

9 hours ago, student said:

@FlashGordonPhotography Pardon me for going a little offtrack, but given the breadth and depth of your experience, how would you rate the 907x viv a vis SL2S in terms of the parameters that you brought up in your post? 

I am undecided between the two but hampered much by my ignorance about these matters (which is just about complete), and by my limited experience of photography being confined to just fun stuff only. Any advice would therefore be most welcome

Get the SL2-S. No doubt. Definitely. If the X1DII/X2D are a scalpel instead of a swiss army knife, then the 907x is a replacement blade for the scalpel. It’s enormously specialised. Controls are super limited. Portrait shooting is difficult (without the MASSIVE grip). No EVF. The optical viewfinder price will put a kid through university….

Don’t get me wrong. I LOVE my 907x. As much as any M I’ve owned. More than most of them. It’s stunning. The files are stunning. It’s a huge amount of fun to use. With the ratio set to square and a hood an it’s just heaven. It makes you think and contemplate an image, which is the best bit and something modern Canikony’s actively discourage.

Howeve the 907x would never be my only camera. Or the first one I’d choose. The SL2/SL2S is versatile, flexible usable. As someone starting the photography journey a camera like the SL2S will let you grow into it. The 907x is sink or swim. Mind you even the SL2S is more than you need for great images. It’s a big investment so you’d want to be all in. Because it’s not really the camera but the glass where Leica shines.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

2 hours ago, Kristofferpaulsen said:

…….. My friend who ditched his GFX100 complained that he didnt like the files at 100%. …..

 

Lightroom user was he?

Really though the Fuji cameras do a lousy job of reviewing images in camera and LR does a lousy job of processing them. I have GFX and X systems and they’re all lousy at file review at high magnifications and yes, it’s frustrating. Processed properly though (try DXO) the GFX100/100S files beat the smaller formats to a pulp. Sure, much of the time you won’t see it, if conditions are good. But as soon as the files are pushed even the best of the high res small format sensors (probably the M11 for now??) fall over long before the miniMF files. Hasselblad doesn’t even offer LENR because the sensor just doesn’t need it. Shoot a 5 minute exposure on any 135 format camera and then on the Fuji/HB 51 mp sensors and the difference is stark.

In studio, where I have absolute control, I’m far more likely to use an SL2 or R5. But when the light gets low even the old 50MP sensor is better, noticeably and that’s only increased with the 102MP sensor in the GFX100 and X2D.

Sure some of the Fuji design and tech choices are questionable. A 3million dot EVF on a 100MP camera??? The menus are encyclopaedic. Even with PDAF the SL2 is often faster in AF and certainly faster in operation. But the files of the GFX100 are not in the same ballpark. The way my GFX100S and 63mm or X2D and 55mm out resolve the M11 with my 50 APO on it is something to behold.

And the Hasselblad’s review is as good or better than the Leica’s. It’s a Fuji thing. Cheap has to come in somewhere.

Gordon

[Kristofferpaulsen]

24 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Lightroom user was he?

Really though the Fuji cameras do a lousy job of reviewing images in camera and LR does a lousy job of processing them. I have GFX and X systems and they’re all lousy at file review at high magnifications and yes, it’s frustrating. Processed properly though (try DXO) the GFX100/100S files beat the smaller formats to a pulp. Sure, much of the time you won’t see it, if conditions are good. But as soon as the files are pushed even the best of the high res small format sensors (probably the M11 for now??) fall over long before the miniMF files. Hasselblad doesn’t even offer LENR because the sensor just doesn’t need it. Shoot a 5 minute exposure on any 135 format camera and then on the Fuji/HB 51 mp sensors and the difference is stark.

In studio, where I have absolute control, I’m far more likely to use an SL2 or R5. But when the light gets low even the old 50MP sensor is better, noticeably and that’s only increased with the 102MP sensor in the GFX100 and X2D.

Sure some of the Fuji design and tech choices are questionable. A 3million dot EVF on a 100MP camera??? The menus are encyclopaedic. Even with PDAF the SL2 is often faster in AF and certainly faster in operation. But the files of the GFX100 are not in the same ballpark. The way my GFX100S and 63mm or X2D and 55mm out resolve the M11 with my 50 APO on it is something to behold.

And the Hasselblad’s review is as good or better than the Leica’s. It’s a Fuji thing. Cheap has to come in somewhere.

Gordon

you know what.. he does use LR.. despite my continual insistence that Capture One is the way, the truth and the light.. 

And yeah, i did find the menus on my old X100V a bit of a nightmare compared to my Q2 that i have now. They're great cameras, but i'm a bear of very little brains who needs it to be simple...

 

Tellya what none of them have except for one.. The Phase XF has an inbuilt Profoto Air remote, and if you're shooting on a leaf shutter lens, you can sync up to 1600th mechanically. Loooooooooove that. 

[student]

3 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Get the SL2-S. No doubt. Definitely. If the X1DII/X2D are a scalpel instead of a swiss army knife, then the 907x is a replacement blade for the scalpel. It’s enormously specialised. Controls are super limited. Portrait shooting is difficult (without the MASSIVE grip). No EVF. The optical viewfinder price will put a kid through university….

Don’t get me wrong. I LOVE my 907x. As much as any M I’ve owned. More than most of them. It’s stunning. The files are stunning. It’s a huge amount of fun to use. With the ratio set to square and a hood an it’s just heaven. It makes you think and contemplate an image, which is the best bit and something modern Canikony’s actively discourage.

Howeve the 907x would never be my only camera. Or the first one I’d choose. The SL2/SL2S is versatile, flexible usable. As someone starting the photography journey a camera like the SL2S will let you grow into it. The 907x is sink or swim. Mind you even the SL2S is more than you need for great images. It’s a big investment so you’d want to be all in. Because it’s not really the camera but the glass where Leica shines.

Gordon

Thank you for sharing your experience and for your advice. I suppose the remarks that apply to X1D and X1Dii would also necessarily apply to X2D. That said for me the appeal of those Hasselblads lay in the superb designs. But I get very much your point, and would now look closely at Leica Sl2-S; its being offered in 2 kit versions: the body with VARIO-ELMARIT-SL 2.8/24-70 ASPH; or with SUMMICRON 35 F/2.0 COMPACT - the former being about just under 10% more expensive

Once again thank you for taking the time to explain, and I am wiser as a result

Edited April 4, 2023 by student
omitted words by accident

[Kristofferpaulsen]

That’ll be a killer kit, you’ll love it.

[Ko.Fe.]

One thing which stops me every time I'm considering GFX system is odd 4:3 ratio. Getting larger sensor only to crop it to 3:2... never worked for me with M43.

Very limited and pricy native lenses selection is another turning away point to me as well.

 

And since film MF was brought here. I don't like 6x6 and was always cropping it to 8x10 paper under enlarger   until I realized it was not worth it, to me. 

[hdmesa]

On 3/27/2023 at 3:25 PM, adelie said:

I think I might be at a cross roads with my landscape photography. Currently I am shooting with a Leica SL (601) with the 16−35mm Panasonic wide angle L mount, the 24−90mm Leica Vario Elmarit, and the Sigma 100−400mm L Mount telephoto lens.

In addition, I have several Leica M and R lenses that I can adapt to the SL family with the appropriate Leica adapters. So I am firmly in the Leica camp.

I am looking for a used Leica SL2 at the moment to replace the SL - mostly for the in body stabilization offered by the SL2.

However recently, I am intrigued by the Fujifilm GFX 50SII with the kit lens 35 − 70mm medium format. Has anyone here on this forum else used "both an SL2 and the GFX50SII / 35 − 70mm combo"?

Of note, I also have a Mamiya 7II film rangefinder with the 43, 80, and 150mm lenses that can be adapted to the GFX body with this adapter thereby making the GFX a little more attractive:

https://fotodioxpro.com/collections/fujifilm-gfx-adapters/products/m7-gfx-fsn

I guess my question is that both of these systems - the SL2 (at 48 Mgb) and the GFX (at 50.1 Mgb) are about the same resolution but the GFX has some distinct advantages for landscape photography being medium format - broader dynamic range, Fuji colour film emulations, etc.

Silly question I know but which direction should I go and why?
 

No offense to owners of either of these bodies, but you couldn't pay me to use either, especially the old GFX 50mp FSI sensor technology that will be 10 years old next year (first iteration appeared in the Pentax 645z). While some prefer the old school color pop and higher initial RAW contrast of the older FSI sensors, I much prefer the more neutral initial output from BSI sensors in the SL2-S and GFX 100S. The biggest plus for me about the BSI sensors in both the SL2-S and 100S is the integrity of shadow color and tonality. No more muddy lifted shadows.

I would either wait for the SL3, which will likely have the high res BSI 60mp sensor from the M11 and much faster AF than the SL2 – or I would get the 100S, which already has much faster focus than the 50R/S/SII.

Some other things to note:

Price: GF lenses are very high IQ but are much less expensive than Leica APO primes.

Native GF lens options are non-existent past 350mm (GF 250 + 1.4x).

There is a wide angle tilt/shift GF lens coming.

DOF: f/8 is fairly narrow area of perfect focus when shooting landscape orientation with the GFX due to the 4:3 sensor ratio. This "taller" format is like IMAX, giving you more area top and bottom on the shorter side of the frame. In landscape orientation, this has the practical effect of allowing you to include more foreground in the composition relative to 3:2 in the same orientation. With more foreground, you are increasing the distance you must cover, thereby potentially requiring great DOF.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[proenca]

Well here is my experience.

My past ( short past ) experience, I have used the following cameras in this order : 

Fuji GFX50
Hassleblad X1D
Sony A7R III
Sony A7R IV
Leica SL2

and before buying the SL2 I toyed with the 100S and the 50S.

My take on all this : 

50S/50 + X1D are way below the SL2 in pretty much everything : they are SLOW cameras, a bit infuriating to use, AF is dreadfull at best, EVF is subpar , you pretty much gain nothing apart from cash and I'll explain : the beauty of medium format in Fuji are the lenses , price wise : you pretty much get top tier lenses for much discounted price vs Leica SL APO's. 

I used quite a few MF cameras in the past ( film ) and I get the "slow is MF motto, makes you get better" which is fine with a film not so with digital.

Digital MF ( 50/X1D ) are just old tech and its the same thing of you shooting ( I did ) with a M8 vs a M10 or M11. It just doesnt make sense to shoot with a M8, its just slow to open files, slow to shot, etc.

Also, the 50mp MF sensor offers ZERO advtanges in noise or speed vs the SL2.

SL2 have a superb EVF, fast camera, decent AF, video is top notch ( even more with the SL2S ) and paired with APO SL lenses is terrific.

I've put the Sony's there since I was a father and want a fast AF camera to track my son and daughter and the Sony's were perfect at that - AF is top notch but... the files are a bit souless and I used pretty much the best GM lenses out there - 24 1.4GM, 135 1.8 GM, etc... the colors were never right ...

When I wanted to ditch the Sony's, I was left with a decisions : go to Fuji again ( 100s ) or SL2.

Is not an easy decision : 100S is an excelent camera but the menu system drives me crazy. I love the SL2 menu simplicity and handling. The feel. The colors and APO SL lenses ( currently having 35APO and 90APO, also the excelent 12-24 2.8 Sigma Art ) .

Multipixel shots are nice but if you are a landscape photrapher, caveat emperor : multipixel doesnt allow more than 1 sec exposure - so if you plan to do a 188mp multishot of a long exposure waterfall , yeah, not going to happen.

100S in terms of resolution wise, will beat the Sl2 - that is a given. But... the SL2 holds its ground with good APO SL lenses. I had pretty much every M lenses , GM and Nikkor AFS lesnes out there ( and L Canon  ) and I'm amazed , trully amazed by the two lenses I own. They are perfect.

Also the fun part : since the EVF is so crisp , its gorgeous, makes MF a breeze and you can try other older but gorgeous lenses on it with a 20-25 euros adapter : sometimes I pick the camera with a Contax or Canon FD lenses, for fun.

And the decision was easy for me : I'm not a working ( ie paying ) photographer anymore and the 47mp dng with a good buffer, fill fast. That means having a RAID system ( just upgraded my raid NAS to 2 x 10 tb ) increases costs... my PC is a good one ( Ryzen 5900, 64gb ram, 6900xt watercooled ) and its fast for SL2 and OK for 100s files... 

the 100s is a superb camera if you use it only for landscape - better than the SL2. 

for a trully versatile camera that can do so much more - the SL2 is a winner.

for me, blows the 50/50S/X1D out of the water and I had them all.

[proenca]

Also one thing that was a deciding factor for me : Leica, with the SL APO lenses, used one rule that is used on very high end top tier cinema lenses ( ie, costing more than 25k each ) : each lenses glass is the same.

that means the lens color cast is the same across ALL sl apo's : you switch lenses and the color cast / science of each lens is the same.

this is brilliant when you mix lenses.

maybe not much for some people but for me, was a killer thing