which 75mm would be better for SL2 ?

[jankap]

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1 hour ago, hansvons said:

A typical example is the Noctilux. It’s designed to be insanely fast, which comes with razor-thin DOF. Using it at f 4 makes hardly sense, as any Summicron for half the price will do that better. So you shoot it at f 0.9 and your images will be Nocti-lised. I don't want that stamp on my images.

Using it at f/4 does make sense, as the lens is with you at that moment. Or is the weight one has to carry many lenses, not an option?

I am experimenting with a 0.95 from 1960. This lens wins at f/4.0 from my Elmar, except for the weight of course. So I don´t take the Elmar with me.

---

Nick Rains performs his job excellently.🤠  I am here in the - at the moment - rainy Franconia.

Edited March 27, 2023 by jankap

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[Stuart Richardson]

For me at least, I think it would be the 75mm APO Summicron SL all the way. My personal feeling is that the Noctilux lenses are more about selling extraordinarily expensive lenses to people who must have the most superlative thing: most expensive, fastest. Rarely, however, does that seem to translate into much better utility. In the case of the SL, focusing a 1.25 lens at 1.25 accurately is going to mean magnifying the image to achieve proper focus, or using a focus aid like focus peaking. My own take is that these things slow you down and distract you from the composition, leading you to miss the decisive moment or otherwise diminish your ability to see the whole frame as an aesthetic object. This is not the case with an M lens on an M camera, where the rangefinder allows you to accurately focus while seeing the full frame without visual distractions. But on mirrorless the composition is disrupted. This is fine if you are doing landscapes or still life where you have the time to focus carefully and compose carefully, but I think it is a handicap for portraiture, where you are often chasing momentary changes in posture and expression. In that context, I think a native AF lens like the 75mm APO Summicron SL will allow you to nail the focus and timing without any undue distractions. It is also not much bigger than the 75mm APO M as was mentioned above. The Noctilux is a 15000 dollar lens that in my opinion, has primarily disadvantages compared to the APO lenses. If you want a character lens, the 75mm Summilux has character and glow for days, and is more ergonomic and vastly cheaper than the 75mm Noctilux. It is soft when you want it soft (1.4-2.5) and sharp when you want it sharp (4-11). Anyway, that's my hot take. Anyone wants to give me a free 75mm Noctilux and I am sure I would still take it happily, lol. The 75mm APO SL would be my choice regardless of price, however.

[trickness]

I’ve got both the 75 APO SL and the 75 Nocti. Really different lenses, both amazing. SL is way easier to live with, the Nocti is a pig - just really heavy and I’m always a bit paranoid about damaging it when I take it out in the streets. But wow, the images it can produce are insane, pure dreamscapes wide open. The SL has incredible pop, it’s obviously auto focus, like 1/2 the weight and a third of the price. It’s the far easier choice if you want a simple answer.

But it is a wonderful burden to have the 75 Nocti….

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by trickness

[pickerdd]

i'm sure there are more qualified photographers here to give advise, but i'll throw in my 2 cents if you all don't mind. When taking photos at home (the pups, flowers, etc... the 75mm SL APO is almost always on my SL2. I understand that other 75's have their own characteristics and strengths, but i really love the 75 SL APO. My 35mm SL APO is usually on the SL2 when I travel. That one is amazing! 

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[Photoworks]

44 minutes ago, trickness said:

got both the 75 APO SL and the 75 Nocti

wow! I feel your pain. You never know what to pick up for photos and for weight lifting LOL.

What is the minimum focus distance?

the 1-meter minimum is what I dislike most on my 50mm 0.95

 

[Osirix]

1 hour ago, trickness said:

I’ve got both the 75 APO SL and the 75 Nocti. Really different lenses, both amazing. SL is way easier to live with, the Nocti is a pig - just really heavy and I’m always a bit paranoid about damaging it when I take it out in the streets. But wow, the images it can produce are insane, pure dreamscapes wide open. The SL has incredible pop, it’s obviously auto focus, like 1/2 the weight and a third of the price. It’s the far easier choice if you want a simple answer.

But it is a wonderful burden to have the 75 Nocti….

 

I can understand that feeling…:)

 

[Osirix]

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1 hour ago, pickerdd said:

i'm sure there are more qualified photographers here to give advise, but i'll throw in my 2 cents if you all don't mind. When taking photos at home (the pups, flowers, etc... the 75mm SL APO is almost always on my SL2. I understand that other 75's have their own characteristics and strengths, but i really love the 75 SL APO. My 35mm SL APO is usually on the SL2 when I travel. That one is amazing! 

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nice shot 👏👏👏

[Osirix]

12 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

Osirix,  First, welcome to the forum.  As you can see, there are a lot of experienced and well meaning photographers that offer sage advice to include myself.  Just remember, at the end of the day, its solely your choice, decision and bank account that matters.  Second, I understand your angst with the 75mm focal length.  Several members have mentioned excellent points to consider.  IMO, it gets down to how the lens draws or renders the scene and how you wish to create the photograph.  Each lens draws in their designed way and its up to you to choose which lens or lenses are right for your genre of photography.  All said, I thought you might want to look at some photographs taken with the different Leica 75mm M and SL lenses.  This might help you decide what is best for you and your wallet.    r/ Mark

Try:  M 75 Apo Summicron:    https://onfotolife.com/lens_sample_photos?lens_id=382&page=1&focal_min=0&focal_max=800&aperture_min=0&aperture_max=32

Try:  M 75 Noctilux:    https://onfotolife.com/lens_sample_photos?lens_id=1382&page=1&focal_min=0&focal_max=800&aperture_min=0&aperture_max=32

Try:  SL Apo Summicron:   https://onfotolife.com/lens_sample_photos?lens_id=1387&page=1&focal_min=0&focal_max=800&aperture_min=0&aperture_max=32

PS.. Nick Rains a Leica Camera instructor here in Australia made a very good video about shooting with the 75 Noctilux.  

 

Hi Mark,

many thanks for the warm welcome to you and all other members of the forum.

I really appreciated your competence and willing to share experience and advice.

I’ve been surfing on the forum for a while and watching several times Nick Rains’ videos and RDF’s videos as well before launching myself on this challenging Leica endless journey. I understand that the more I dig the more I find a totally fascinating world and at the end of the day, as you and other members have said, it’s up to me making “that” call.

Please all of you keep going with your sincere and honest views and advises to maintain this forum as a place where sharing and education are a real pleasure !!!

In the mean while I have to go back to the Leica Store and God (maybe) knows what is going to happen 🙈😂

[Simone_DF]

17 hours ago, Osirix said:

Mostly portraits

Then you should also consider the Voigtlander 75mm f1.5, I think the rendering is gorgeous for portraits wide open:

https://mrleica.com/voigtlander-75mm-f1-5/

[Osirix]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

Then you should also consider the Voigtlander 75mm f1.5, I think the rendering is gorgeous for portraits wide open:

https://mrleica.com/voigtlander-75mm-f1-5/

Many thanks, I’ll keep this in mind then !

[trickness]

13 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

For me at least, I think it would be the 75mm APO Summicron SL all the way. My personal feeling is that the Noctilux lenses are more about selling extraordinarily expensive lenses to people who must have the most superlative thing: most expensive, fastest. Rarely, however, does that seem to translate into much better utility. In the case of the SL, focusing a 1.25 lens at 1.25 accurately is going to mean magnifying the image to achieve proper focus, or using a focus aid like focus peaking. My own take is that these things slow you down and distract you from the composition, leading you to miss the decisive moment or otherwise diminish your ability to see the whole frame as an aesthetic object. This is not the case with an M lens on an M camera, where the rangefinder allows you to accurately focus while seeing the full frame without visual distractions. But on mirrorless the composition is disrupted. This is fine if you are doing landscapes or still life where you have the time to focus carefully and compose carefully, but I think it is a handicap for portraiture, where you are often chasing momentary changes in posture and expression. In that context, I think a native AF lens like the 75mm APO Summicron SL will allow you to nail the focus and timing without any undue distractions. It is also not much bigger than the 75mm APO M as was mentioned above. The Noctilux is a 15000 dollar lens that in my opinion, has primarily disadvantages compared to the APO lenses. If you want a character lens, the 75mm Summilux has character and glow for days, and is more ergonomic and vastly cheaper than the 75mm Noctilux. It is soft when you want it soft (1.4-2.5) and sharp when you want it sharp (4-11). Anyway, that's my hot take. Anyone wants to give me a free 75mm Noctilux and I am sure I would still take it happily, lol. The 75mm APO SL would be my choice regardless of price, however.

With respect, reading this it strikes me that perhaps you have never used the 75 Noctilux, or perhaps have not used it extensively.

The Nocti renders entirely differently than the 75 SL. It has a biting sharpness that is quite striking. I find it quite easy to focus it wide open with the SL2, and it is very easy to look at images taken with both lenses and see the difference. The 75 Summilux is a wonderful tool, but has absolutely nowhere near the “let me look into the bottom of your facial pores” sharpness of the Nocti. 
 

All I do is portraiture, on the street, with strangers, where an encounter lasts maybe 10 minutes. Every single time I use the 75 Nocti, the results are magical. Does it take a little extra effort and practice to learn how to use the lens? Of course. Is it “better” than the 75 SL? That’s not the right question….it’s different. And neither the 75 SL or the old Mandler Lux can do what it does. It’s ridiculously expensive, although I got mine used for 9k. And I have never regretted it for a moment.
 

Of course, a used 75 SL at $3500 is a spectacular tool, and I would never want to let go of that lens either.

Edited March 28, 2023 by trickness

[Stuart Richardson]

On 3/28/2023 at 1:08 AM, trickness said:

With respect, reading this it strikes me that perhaps you have never used the 75 Noctilux, or perhaps have not used it extensively.

 

No, you are correct! I have not used the 75 Noctilux. I fully acknowledge that it is a great lens. That said, I think it has issues that are inherent in its design that make it less ideal for this work on an EVF camera. But that is my opinion, and I don't begrudge others from using it. Just for me, it does not make a lot of sense, since it is three times the cost of a lens that to my eyes will perform better and be sharper, have no LOCA (which I have seen in 75mm Noctilux samples), and focus quickly and reliably on the SL body. I have used the 50mm Noctilux lenses on the SL, as well as the 75mm Summilux. I just don't feel like the Noctilux lenses are really all that great as actual photographic tools. I have tried all of them except the 1.2 and the 75mm. I have found that if you want a really lovely and creamy, yet sharp look, medium format fast lenses (I am thinking the S with a 70, 100 or 120, or even the 110mm f2 planar on any camera it fits) or even large format do a better job, and while the modern noctiluxes are quite sharp, they also tend to have more color fringing (particularly loca) than the equivalent apo summicron lens version. In the samples I have seen, it looks like it takes very nice images, but they do not seem distinctive to me compared to what you might expect from another other high quality 75-90mm 1.2 or 1.4 lens. Add to that their extreme cost, heavy weight and bulk and manual focus, and it just seems to be a bit sysyphean to me.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[trickness]

41 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

No, you are correct! I have not used the 75 Noctilux. I fully acknowledge that it is a great lens. That said, I think it has issues that are inherent in its design that make it less ideal for this work on an EVF camera. But that is my opinion, and I don't begrudge others from using it. Just for me, it does not make a lot of sense, since it is three times the cost of a lens that to my eyes will perform better and be sharper, have no LOCA (which I have seen in 75mm Noctilux samples), and focus quickly and reliably on the SL body. I have used the 50mm Noctilux lenses on the SL, as well as the 75mm Summilux. I just don't feel like the Noctilux lenses are really all that great as actual photographic tools. I have tried all of them except the 1.2 and the 75mm. I have found that if you want a really lovely and creamy, yet sharp look, medium format fast lenses (I am thinking the S with a 70, 100 or 120, or even the 110mm f2 planar on any camera it fits) or even large format do a better job, and while the modern noctiluxes are quite sharp, they also tend to have more color fringing (particularly loca) than the equivalent apo summicron lens version. In the samples I have seen, it looks like it takes very nice images, but they do not seem distinctive to me compared to what you might expect from another other high quality 75-90mm 1.2 or 1.4 lens. Add to that their extreme cost, heavy weight and bulk and manual focus, and it just seems to be a bit sysyphean to me.

The 50 Nocti and the 75 are as different as chalk and cheese. I think the 0.95 is highly flawed and Karbe evolved the 75 with some awareness of that. The 75 Nocti for me ONLY really works on an EVF camera - because of the balance and viewfinder blockage issues on an M body, not to mention how much easier it is to focus. 

And lastly, I don't think you can really just any tool's capabilities simply by looking at people's pictures on the internet. Having used the 75 Nocti extensively I can confidently say it provides a very distinctive look. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts after actually using the lens, as I think your opinion would change. I'd never say the 75 Nocti is a PRACTICAL choice. I had almost no interest in this lens until I used it at a Leica Akademie class, where I shot with it for two hours indoors and out, and within two weeks I had taken out a loan and bought mine 😂

[Photoworks]

the 75 Nocti is nothing like the other 50's

It was surprising how little CA the 75 has, I wish they redo all the 50mm like that. but the lens is big and I think it is a better SL lens, the images look so unique.

[Stuart Richardson]

Thank you for your perspectives. I do hope I get a chance to try it more extensively one day. I still remain highly skeptical I will change my view, because my objections are not really due to the optical quality or "look" (only that it is not as high as the 75mm APO, which is does not seem like most would argue with), and more about practicality. Also the qualities that I am attracted to in a lens seem to be different. For me the fewer the color aberrations, the higher the contrast and the lower the distortion the better, along with practical features like size, weight, focusing ability, weather sealing and price are all quite important. Extreme speed is not high on the list, nor is distinctive bokeh, as long as the bokeh in general is good. I do value those features, but not enough to seek out a lens that costs five figures. The thread is about what 75mm would be best for the SL system, and the 75mm APO is still my recommendation, even if all were priced the same and I could only pick one.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[trickness]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:48 AM, Photoworks said:

wow! I feel your pain. You never know what to pick up for photos and for weight lifting LOL.

What is the minimum focus distance?

the 1-meter minimum is what I dislike most on my 50mm 0.95

 

Sorry I missed your question, the MFD on the 75 Nocti is 0.85 meters, so a bit better than the 50

[John Smith]

21 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Thank you for your perspectives. I do hope I get a chance to try it more extensively one day. I still remain highly skeptical I will change my view, because my objections are not really due to the optical quality or "look" (only that it is not as high as the 75mm APO, which is does not seem like most would argue with), and more about practicality. Also the qualities that I am attracted to in a lens seem to be different. For me the fewer the color aberrations, the higher the contrast and the lower the distortion the better, along with practical features like size, weight, focusing ability, weather sealing and price are all quite important. Extreme speed is not high on the list, nor is distinctive bokeh, as long as the bokeh in general is good. I do value those features, but not enough to seek out a lens that costs five figures. The thread is about what 75mm would be best for the SL system, and the 75mm APO is still my recommendation, even if all were priced the same and I could only pick one.

It's helpful (and embarrassing) to have both. I don't know which one I would let go of first. 

[Stuart Richardson]

1 minute ago, John Smith said:

It's helpful (and embarrassing) to have both. I don't know which one I would let go of first. 

If you enjoy both, don't let an online crank like me dampen your fun. I am a more fun as an offline crank, when I just get excited to show people pictures and talk about how much I like particular cameras and lenses. And I have two 75mm lenses as well...and have had for almost twenty years, so you can follow my example of being on the way to sell one for two decades.

 

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[Hanno]

On 3/29/2023 at 12:43 PM, trickness said:

how much easier it is to focus. 

This is so true. With such a high quality EVF, focusing with the Noctilux is fast and precise, specially at MFD as you can focus by simply and lightly moving your body and not the focus ring. The EVF image is that sharp and precise. And focus peak for those who wants/needs.

 

@Osirix If you are not into AF, weight and/or water proof considerations, there is not much sense indeed in having both SL APO 75mm and the Noctilux 75mm.

As you mentioned you are mostly into portraiture, I would (if budget allows now, ortherwise over some time) consider and explore getting the Noctilux 75mm and the SL APO 90mm. It will give you so much versatility and depth in portraiture.

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Hanno

[Hanno]

22 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The thread is about what 75mm would be best for the SL system

Despite the title of the thread and with all due respect I would disagree.

The thread I do believe is or should be what 75mm would be best for @Osirix.

It has to be based on his own uses, needs, dreams and constraints. Only him can tell, and we can only share our own experiences and GAS issues 😃

Edited March 30, 2023 by Hanno