elmars Posted January 28, 2023 Share #41 Posted January 28, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) Am 26.1.2023 um 22:02 schrieb jqian6: turn on the playback showing a picture, then hold on to one arrow of the pad, the pictures fly through the LCD, at the same time, depress the shutter release button fully taking a picture, and it's over exposed by maximizing the ISO and the shutter speed is about 1/20s. I tried several times but I cannot repeat it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 28, 2023 Posted January 28, 2023 Hi elmars, Take a look here I can repeatedly reproduce overexposure now. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
MattiasAndersson Posted February 4, 2023 Share #42 Posted February 4, 2023 On 1/28/2023 at 4:19 PM, elmars said: I tried several times but I cannot repeat it. M-D ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted February 5, 2023 Share #43 Posted February 5, 2023 ? M11! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattiasAndersson Posted February 5, 2023 Share #44 Posted February 5, 2023 1 hour ago, elmars said: ? M11! Was trying to be funny, feel this thread to be far from my type of M use. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELAN Posted February 7, 2023 Share #45 Posted February 7, 2023 Today while shooting a fast moving target I got 4 overexposed frames within 2 minutes. Single shot, auto ISO, auto shutter speed, no LV, no EVF. The overexposed shots occur mostly when shooting rapidly and vary in their overexposure amount. If Leica were to fix just one bug I wish this would be it! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 4 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/363572-i-can-repeatedly-reproduce-overexposure-now/?do=findComment&comment=4675697'>More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted February 10, 2023 Share #46 Posted February 10, 2023 Hmm. Most of us (the nerds on this thread) seem to have been able to provoke an overexposed frame from time to time, but now we're getting some interesting data from those who have mastered their overexposure protocol. Welcome to tester heaven, guys. The M11 is a rich lode because (at least I suspect) a lot of firmware had to be rewritten to move to the newest Maestro from the legacy ASIC and signal processor chips that had been used in its predecessors. The Maestros use an ARM processor, which is a multi-core, multi-threaded processor. At least it is not hyper-threaded (two tasks share a thread), because that is Intel proprietary. But because all of this stuff is going on at the same time, it is more costly to insert checks to be sure all parts of an exposure are ready to go before the shutter is released. Notice in the examples just above -- the exposure is correct but the ISO seems to have not settled into its correct value. Except in #113, where the shutter speed also took on a funny value. Notice in #114, the ISO is a bit too high, and the shot got about a stop of extra exposure. I wonder if those two were shot very quickly and the camera was still buzzing with the confusion of the previous shot. I don't see this problem very often. I use 300 MB/sec SanDisk Extreme Pro cards and don't usually shoot very fast. I also have LV on a lot. Does the speed of the card have a big influence on the overexposures? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted February 10, 2023 Share #47 Posted February 10, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) Best in situations like the one above to use manual exposure. The light isn't changing -set and forget and shoot. All this automation makes for lazy photographers. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELAN Posted February 11, 2023 Share #48 Posted February 11, 2023 19 hours ago, 19and9 said: I very much suspect what you suggest: slower speed of sd card is the culprit. No it’s not. The above shots were saved to internal storage and there was no SD card in the camera. I suspect that overexposure occurs when pressing the shutter button rapidly and the camera is metering in between shots while the shutter is still re-opening to meter. If you press the shutter button slowly (say 1 second between shots) I bet you will never see a single overexposed frame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted February 11, 2023 Share #49 Posted February 11, 2023 vor 55 Minuten schrieb ELAN: I bet you will never see a single overexposed frame. I had some of them and reported them tom Leica. Am 10.2.2023 um 06:13 schrieb scott kirkpatrick: The M11 is a rich lode because (at least I suspect) a lot of firmware had to be rewritten to move to the newest Maestro from the legacy ASIC and signal processor chips that had been used in its predecessors. This might be the clue. The firmware of the M10 is stable because it has developed so over trhe years. The firmware of the M11 looks similar to the one of the M10 but this is only the surface. Underneath it is totally new and many bugs are to find and delete. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henners Posted February 11, 2023 Share #50 Posted February 11, 2023 The good news is that they're probably still working on how to get the best from the new sensor and future updates will not only eliminate these issues but possibly also improve many other areas of the processing pipeline. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted February 12, 2023 Share #51 Posted February 12, 2023 On 2/7/2023 at 7:11 AM, ELAN said: Today while shooting a fast moving target I got 4 overexposed frames within 2 minutes. Single shot, auto ISO, auto shutter speed, no LV, no EVF. The overexposed shots occur mostly when shooting rapidly and vary in their overexposure amount. If Leica were to fix just one bug I wish this would be it! Interesting. The problem seems clearly related to auto-iso. You shutter speeds seem to be remaining relatively constant with the ISO bumping up several stops for seemingly no reason on occasion. I'd turn off auto iso... perhaps check you're iso dial as well to make sure its seated properly. As you can see Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELAN Posted February 12, 2023 Share #52 Posted February 12, 2023 51 minutes ago, Tailwagger said: Interesting. The problem seems clearly related to auto-iso. You shutter speeds seem to be remaining relatively constant with the ISO bumping up several stops for seemingly no reason on occasion. I'd turn off auto iso... perhaps check you're iso dial as well to make sure its seated properly. Auto ISO Shutter speed limit was set to 1/(4f) and on a 35mm lens the minimum shutter speed would be 1/160s. That’s why the shutter speed seems relatively constant at 1/160s and ISO is fluctuating- seems like Auto ISO is working as it should be. Nonetheless, I will disable Auto ISO and see if I still get overexposed frames. Thanks for the thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELAN Posted February 12, 2023 Share #53 Posted February 12, 2023 So I can pretty much provoke overexposure at will by rapidly pressing the shutter button. Constant ISO, aperture and lighting, and only a little subject motion. Images saved to internal storage. Auto ISO turned off, ISO set to 200 at the dial. Single shot mode. Overexposure amount varies, so perhaps the shutter isn’t fully open when metering occurs. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/363572-i-can-repeatedly-reproduce-overexposure-now/?do=findComment&comment=4682941'>More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted February 12, 2023 Share #54 Posted February 12, 2023 6 hours ago, ELAN said: Auto ISO Shutter speed limit was set to 1/(4f) and on a 35mm lens the minimum shutter speed would be 1/160s. That’s why the shutter speed seems relatively constant at 1/160s and ISO is fluctuating- seems like Auto ISO is working as it should be. Nonetheless, I will disable Auto ISO and see if I still get overexposed frames. Thanks for the thought. Perhaps, but not necessarily. To my mind there are at least two possibilities. The first two frames you supplied had to have been taken within a very brief timespan, the lighting conditions haven't changed and yet the ISO shot up for no apparent reason. Given the exposure isn't fluctuating wildly...more on this later..., the problem wouldn't seem to be with what the sensor is reporting, but rather how the software is interpreting it. And note that its doing so in a situation where the buffer from the previous shot(s) is likely being read off to the card. i.e its multi-tasking and we've already seen that the M11 has a number of problems that seem to be related to that. The one anomaly is frame #17 at 1/4" 6400. That one smells a lot like having rocked the shutter speed dial off of 'A' to 'B'. Just took you a 1/4" to release it. To that last point, the funny thing is that just this past week I ran into a similar situation, however in this case, it was clearly all my own fault. Note the change in shooting parameters between the first shot and the next two. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! As you can see 'all of a sudden' shutter speed jumped up and ISO crept up. Why? Clearly I bumped the shutter speed dial when placing or pulling the camera from the bag and just failed to notice. I was fortunate that it was a bright enough day and I was stopped down enough (F5.6 actually) that the auto-ISO comp was fairly benign. In a different conditions, I would have lost the shots. But there is a second possibility that occurred to me as I was falling asleep last night that might exonerate the auto-ISO algorithm. This morning in revisiting the photos, I think this possibility is a little less likely, but still perhaps possible. The windows on the left of your scene should have supplied sufficient light to keep the lighting relatively constant, but as I suspected when I checked your images, there seems to be a lot of modern lighting fixtures. If you've ever used an e-shutter around LED lighting, you'll note that every now and again a shot gets ruined due to banding. This is the result of the speed of the sensor readout and the fact that such lighting isn't continuous, but rather pulsing rapidly enough that the human brain can't detect it. Some scan lines are exposed when the lights are on, some when they are off, hence when things are synced just right, every few lines one is exposed when the lights are off and you get banding. One suspects that reading the metering values off the sensor is subject to the same sort of speed limitations/line by line reading as the e-shutter. If so, it makes me wonder if metering in such situations might occasionally do the same thing. IE. read scan lines at the moment when the lights are 'off' and thus calculates a far higher ISO value than is necessary once they are back on again. If so that would explain why we only seem to be seeing over exposure... the lights are off, the metering correctly note low light, the lights are on, the shot is over exposed. Assuming this second theory is closer to the truth than turning auto-ISO off it won't make any difference. One either has to go full manual in such cases or accept that occasionally the metering will get thrown for a loop and over expose the scene when in the presences of such lighting. 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! As you can see 'all of a sudden' shutter speed jumped up and ISO crept up. Why? Clearly I bumped the shutter speed dial when placing or pulling the camera from the bag and just failed to notice. I was fortunate that it was a bright enough day and I was stopped down enough (F5.6 actually) that the auto-ISO comp was fairly benign. In a different conditions, I would have lost the shots. But there is a second possibility that occurred to me as I was falling asleep last night that might exonerate the auto-ISO algorithm. This morning in revisiting the photos, I think this possibility is a little less likely, but still perhaps possible. The windows on the left of your scene should have supplied sufficient light to keep the lighting relatively constant, but as I suspected when I checked your images, there seems to be a lot of modern lighting fixtures. If you've ever used an e-shutter around LED lighting, you'll note that every now and again a shot gets ruined due to banding. This is the result of the speed of the sensor readout and the fact that such lighting isn't continuous, but rather pulsing rapidly enough that the human brain can't detect it. Some scan lines are exposed when the lights are on, some when they are off, hence when things are synced just right, every few lines one is exposed when the lights are off and you get banding. One suspects that reading the metering values off the sensor is subject to the same sort of speed limitations/line by line reading as the e-shutter. If so, it makes me wonder if metering in such situations might occasionally do the same thing. IE. read scan lines at the moment when the lights are 'off' and thus calculates a far higher ISO value than is necessary once they are back on again. If so that would explain why we only seem to be seeing over exposure... the lights are off, the metering correctly note low light, the lights are on, the shot is over exposed. Assuming this second theory is closer to the truth than turning auto-ISO off it won't make any difference. One either has to go full manual in such cases or accept that occasionally the metering will get thrown for a loop and over expose the scene when in the presences of such lighting. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/363572-i-can-repeatedly-reproduce-overexposure-now/?do=findComment&comment=4682960'>More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted February 12, 2023 Share #55 Posted February 12, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, ELAN said: So I can pretty much provoke overexposure at will by rapidly pressing the shutter button. Constant ISO, aperture and lighting, and only a little subject motion. Images saved to internal storage. Auto ISO turned off, ISO set to 200 at the dial. Single shot mode. Overexposure amount varies, so perhaps the shutter isn’t fully open when metering occurs. The second set at least seems to preclude both possibilities I mentioned above. What metering mode are you in? (I was writing when you posted and hadn't seen this new evidence). [EDIT] This pushes me back in the direction of yet another race condition related to reading the sensor while trying to access the card. Can't recall, were you able to reproduce this using the built-in internal memory? Edited February 12, 2023 by Tailwagger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELAN Posted February 12, 2023 Share #56 Posted February 12, 2023 2 hours ago, Tailwagger said: What metering mode are you in? … Can't recall, were you able to reproduce this using the built-in internal memory? In all above examples Exposure Metering is set to Multi-field and all images are saved to internal memory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted February 12, 2023 Share #57 Posted February 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, ELAN said: In all above examples Exposure Metering is set to Multi-field and all images are saved to internal memory. Thx! I found it interesting that the metering is multi-field (never use it) which presumably requires a bit more horse power than the other modes. So I tested and found it didn't seem to make any difference. I can, now however reproduce a facsimile of what you're seeing at will. It strikes me as unlikely, given the nature of your capture sets, that what I'm doing to cause this is what's happening in your case, but it seemed worth going into, just in case. I first set multi-shot to high speed, metering to multimode mode and then took a series of shots rotating 90 degrees or to get some changing lighting conditions from low to high as well hit the buffer as hard as I could. Next, I changed to center weighted metering, performed the same test and got a similar result. Finally, I turned off multi-shot, took a single shot at 0 degrees and then one at 90 degrees where the light and in all three cases I saw the 'problem'. After this, I reversed the process and started at 90 degree (very bright) took a single shot and then went to 0 degrees, took a single shot and saw the opposite problem. IE. the initial exposure was fine and the second one was underexposed, exactly as I expected from the previous test results. Heres an abbreviated sample of what I wound up with. The first two shots are the first and last in the multi-shot series with a few dozen intervening ones deleted, the second two are the single shot results. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! From this test, there are two things I find interesting that could be relevant. In multi-shot mode, if you hold down the shutter button, the camera does NOT re-adjust the exposure once the sequence has begun. You can see nothing changed in the settings, hence as I swung from dark to light the final shot was over-exposed. If you fail to fully release the shutter and instead release to a half press... thats how I managed to force the over exposure... again the parameters do not change and we get a similar result. Now, again, I'm not saying this is what you're doing but by not releasing beyond the half press, the metering won't change and you can over or under expose as the lighting changes. When I look through your series of shots, I find my self wondering where in the sequence of captures did the over exposure occur. Was it the first shot, somewhere in the middle or the last shot? Admittedly it's hard to understand how the lighting conditions could have changed so radically from shot to shot to cause what you saw even if the shutter wasn't fully released. Equally what we are seeing in your case is that the parameters are changing, hence why I'm curious as to which was the first shot in the sequence. If the blown shot was the first one, it could be that an inadvertent half press as the camera was coming up could have locked in the wrong exposure parameters. It's a very, very long shot, but the above makes me want to ask, given your technique of rapid manual firing, if you have a soft release installed? If, so, could it be possible that on occasion in the heat of the moment, you might be half pressing as the camera is coming up or failing to fully release the shutter, either of which would lock you into potentially the wrong exposure parameters? Again, I find this all unlikely and I'm not saying thats what's happening in your case, but I found this result was interesting enough that it was at least worth mentioning. Edited February 12, 2023 by Tailwagger Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! From this test, there are two things I find interesting that could be relevant. In multi-shot mode, if you hold down the shutter button, the camera does NOT re-adjust the exposure once the sequence has begun. You can see nothing changed in the settings, hence as I swung from dark to light the final shot was over-exposed. If you fail to fully release the shutter and instead release to a half press... thats how I managed to force the over exposure... again the parameters do not change and we get a similar result. Now, again, I'm not saying this is what you're doing but by not releasing beyond the half press, the metering won't change and you can over or under expose as the lighting changes. When I look through your series of shots, I find my self wondering where in the sequence of captures did the over exposure occur. Was it the first shot, somewhere in the middle or the last shot? Admittedly it's hard to understand how the lighting conditions could have changed so radically from shot to shot to cause what you saw even if the shutter wasn't fully released. Equally what we are seeing in your case is that the parameters are changing, hence why I'm curious as to which was the first shot in the sequence. If the blown shot was the first one, it could be that an inadvertent half press as the camera was coming up could have locked in the wrong exposure parameters. It's a very, very long shot, but the above makes me want to ask, given your technique of rapid manual firing, if you have a soft release installed? If, so, could it be possible that on occasion in the heat of the moment, you might be half pressing as the camera is coming up or failing to fully release the shutter, either of which would lock you into potentially the wrong exposure parameters? Again, I find this all unlikely and I'm not saying thats what's happening in your case, but I found this result was interesting enough that it was at least worth mentioning. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/363572-i-can-repeatedly-reproduce-overexposure-now/?do=findComment&comment=4683260'>More sharing options...
elmars Posted February 12, 2023 Share #58 Posted February 12, 2023 Sorry, but I do not understand your approach. Maybe it is because of my English skills. But it sounds to me as if the incorrect exposures when shooting are caused by the exposure lock being active. It is active in Multishot and in Singleshot when the shutter button is pressed halfway. The latter is also still active after the photo when the shutter release button is held down halfway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted February 12, 2023 Share #59 Posted February 12, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, elmars said: Sorry, but I do not understand your approach. Maybe it is because of my English skills. But it sounds to me as if the incorrect exposures when shooting are caused by the exposure lock being active. It is active in Multishot and in Singleshot when the shutter button is pressed halfway. The latter is also still active after the photo when the shutter release button is held down halfway. Apologies, only took a year of German many years ago in college so I can't translate (other than google perhaps). Yes, that is what I'm saying. It might be caused by that. If the user fails to fully release the shutter in between shots, its possible to carry those setting over and then incorrectly expose the next shot. This could also happen if one rested one's finger on the shutter button prior to shooting. I could imagine that if one was in a hurry, as you raised the camera, you could unknowingly half press and, again, get an incorrect exposure. As typically if the camera is pointed down there is less light, when it comes up, the frame would be over exposed. I asked about the soft release as I could imagine that either scenario would be more likely to happen with a squishy release, which is why I asked if the OP had one. Edited February 12, 2023 by Tailwagger 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELAN Posted February 12, 2023 Share #60 Posted February 12, 2023 (edited) @Tailwagger In my examples I deliberately tried to keep the lighting constant and in single shot mode. I did not wish to trick the camera or challenge it with edge cases. I was trying to replicate what I see in normal day-to-day use. I do not use a soft release. Edited February 12, 2023 by ELAN Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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