Scratched film due to Leica design

[williamj]

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This is a serious question and I'm not trying to be funny.

So far the scratches on film from new cameras is being treated as due to lack of quality control. That's been commented on in detail elsewhere.

Leica lenses are great but they are not the sole reason for the step up in image quality in Leica cameras.

1. Focus can be more precise especially at shorter focal lengths. I won't go into those lenses that miss focus wide open.
2. There is no mirror slap to fuzz your image.
3. The shutter, trundling along at low speed, is essentially vibrationless.
4. The film pressure plate is very large while the film gate is very narrow resulting in a flatter negative.  Admittedly it is not the vacuum draw of the Contax RTS III but it is an engineered solution in metal.

Erwin Puts has described the tolerances of the film plane in Leica M cameras see https://photo.imx.nl/technique/technique/page58.html.

Film barely fits through the film gate. Given the known tolerances on film thickness and film gate width some gates would be the same size as the thickness of film. It could be that scratching film is within tolerance for a Leica M. Since it is the back of the film it probably won't affect the image. Probably.

So on a different topic, I've found that some film scratches much more easily than others. 400TX seems quite tough and I haven't been able to scratch it in my normal process. I did put a scratch in Fuji ACROS due to wiping down with a microfibre cloth. The Santa high speed black and white, which has been discontinued because it was Russian surveillance film and which I bought to support Ukraine bruises like a peach. At the moment I'm bulk rolling HP5+ for the first time and put a daisy chain of scratches across it due to an accident with a FILCA in a black bag. This is not an ad for Kodak. I'm merely reporting.

Perhaps that is why you get your new camera with a roll of 400TX?

[dpitt]

I never heard of film scratching isssues with any of the previous models. Maybe I was not paying attention. At least I never had issues with multiple vintage M’s. Have used on M2,M3,M4,M5,M6 (old version). Mainly Ilford and Kodak B&W film and never had issues with scratching. Not sure if the cases known now are confirmed and were fixed after swapping (or repair ) of the new M6. Can someone confirm that?

[Erato]

+1

Same here(Barnack, M3, M4, M5, M6, M7)

[williamj]

Neither of my Leicas scratches film. But if it is at the edge of the tolerances then only a small number of cameras would be affected. Since 2003 there are known reports of MP and M-A and now recently new M6 cameras scratching film. 

[fotomas]

I have two old M6 from the 1990ties and had never a problem with scratches either. And I use a great variety of films, also old OWRO films that are much thicker then new films.

[atournas]

Same with my M6 Classic and MP, no scratches, irrespective of the film.

Edited January 15, 2023 by atournas

[colint544]

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I owned a 1985 M6 for 16 years, I put a fair bit of film through it, and I never had any scratched negatives. These days I have an M2, M4, and an M5. They all get used a lot. I've put more than 200 rolls through the M2 alone since 2014. Again, I've never encountered scratches.

I do wonder about the re-design of the pressure plate, with the recessed, but visible screw heads. What is the benefit over the older, completely smooth plate? 

This will be of no solace to the owners of these new cameras, and I really feel for you. To spend so much money on a camera with a small, but very annoying defect, and one which damages your actual images, can't be fun. And then to discover that yours is not an isolated case. I hope you can get this issue swiftly resolved.

Edited January 15, 2023 by colint544

[250swb]

My MP doesn't scratch film, and apart from the M5 which I've never owned, I've had every other Leica M at some time or another, and some more than once (I'm on my third M2 for example), and none of them have ever scratched film. I've scratched film and I'll happily and willing own up and say 'it was me'. And while I do think something is wrong with quality control for some cameras I don't actually believe all the reports are the camera at fault but instead people jumping on the bandwagon because it absolves them.

I should add for context I've never owned ANY camera that scratched film from a defect, not Nikon, Olympus, etc.

Edited January 15, 2023 by 250swb

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, dpitt said:

I never heard of film scratching isssues with any of the previous models.

It's déjà vu all over again:

https://www.photo.net/forums/topic/46459-defective-pressure-plates-in-leica-m6/

[LocalHero1953]

10 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

It's déjà vu all over again:

https://www.photo.net/forums/topic/46459-defective-pressure-plates-in-leica-m6/

I wonder how many people were on the Leica forum then?

That's a rhetorical question: the point being that in M2/M3/M4/M5/M6 days there was no internet to complain to. We could write to Amateur Photographer, but that was it. We have no idea how many faults there were in earlier cameras compared to current models.

[dpitt]

15 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

It's déjà vu all over again:

https://www.photo.net/forums/topic/46459-defective-pressure-plates-in-leica-m6/

At that time (2002!) I was still a happy Nikon shooter, now I am even more happy with Leica. Any production line can fail, it is how the service handles this failure that makes the brand. Actually it says something you have to dig back 20 years to find a similar issue.

My experience with service in Solms has only been with digital bodies, but it was better than could have been expected. So I am confident Leica will solve this issue too.

Edited January 15, 2023 by dpitt

[williamj]

Anbaric's link is interesting especially since it predates the pressure plate with 4 screws, which I understand to be a change that occurred around 2002 (correct me if I am wrong). The error in that case was supposed to be a batch of 100 defective pressure plates. If it is a similar case we may see a pulse of cameras that scratch film and then the whole issue die down. And pop up again and die down again. Because the gap is so narrow it won't take much to cause a problem.

Edited January 15, 2023 by williamj
completeness

[Anbaric]

6 minutes ago, dpitt said:

 Actually it says something you have to dig back 20 years to find a similar issue.

 

[oldwino]

4 hours ago, dpitt said:

Any production line can fail, it is how the service handles this failure that makes the brand.

This.

[250swb]

2 hours ago, Garantenstellung said:

 Many people have the same issues you are experiencing. Most of them don't even post on here.
 

And how do you know this to be true?

 

[lmans]

5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I wonder how many people were on the Leica forum then?

That's a rhetorical question: the point being that in M2/M3/M4/M5/M6 days there was no internet to complain to. We could write to Amateur Photographer, but that was it. We have no idea how many faults there were in earlier cameras compared to current models.

True....since the Internet and this forum for one, the ability to complain or to share issues is evident while in the past it was not, at least to see the broader picture. But my M3 nor my old M6 nor my recent MA do not scratch. 

But I have seen in the past where various film stocks are more prone to scratching. So correct there. 

In the past...were scratches and dust and etc...really as important? People were not as anal about things as they are now (scratches, noise, dust etc) ..    I for one find those bring 'character to an image' instead of a false sense of perfection. 

[BradS]

Bought my first 35mm camera in 1976. Have owned and used probably 50 35mm cameras of all major brands since, exposed thousands of rolls of film.

I've never had a camera scratch film - not one!

A camera that scratches film is completely useless.

[Matlock]

5 minutes ago, BradS said:

Bought my first 35mm camera in 1976. Have owned and used probably 50 35mm cameras of all major brands since, exposed thousands of rolls of film.

I've never had a camera scratch film - not one!

A camera that scratches film is completely useless.

I've had one case of a scratched film. This was with my father's Voigtlander Brilliant back in 1960. The scratching was caused by a jammed film roller and was ,of course, on the emulsion side. Sadly the shots could not be repeated but that was nearly 63 years ago.

[lmans]

I remember my older sister in the 70's buying all of those magazines (Vogue, etc ).... I have to admit, being a teenage boy, I enjoyed looking at the scantily clad girls... 

But I also remember the pure falsement of the images as the faces were clearly void of any pimple or facial mars let alone the scratches or mars from a camera.  Totally worked. 

So perhaps from an editor's point of view, then and now they want that false perfection, let alone the people on the page want to be falsified too.... Have you seen old stars now such as Goldie Hawn or when Regis was alive etc without make-up?.... and how their faces are/were no where near perfection akin to a 30 year old? .... Don't we all know they are fake....fake, fake... 

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Hallo,

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[Mikep996]

I suspect we were far more critical of film scratches back in the day than anybody is now.  Back then there was no easy way to hide them.  Nowadays many (most?) folks that shoot film don't use a darkroom, they scan it and then can do the digital "correction" to repair faults rather easily.  In the darkroom, that wasn't easy at all.  So it's not a question of "faults" that always existed are being questioned now; it's the opposite.  Faults that may be accepted now because they are easily correctable were not acceptable at all in the darkroom days (and they shouldn't be acceptable today).

Edited January 15, 2023 by Mikep996