Guest tummydoc Posted October 18, 2007 Share #21 Posted October 18, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Exactly the point I've made before. If $700 is make-or-break, the M8 was probably more than you should've considered spending even when it was $4800. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 Hi Guest tummydoc, Take a look here Brace your self US M'ers. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
michael_b_elmer Posted October 18, 2007 Share #22 Posted October 18, 2007 Leica stated that the increase in price is based on improvements inside the camera - don't laugh at me, look at them. That means that you get a slightly different camera than the first version. Cameras sitting around as well as demo stuff are not real bargains. Undocumented statements like this one should not go unpunished by the moderators. Statements like the above must always be documented with a reference to the source, preferably in the form of a link. As far as I know, Leica has made no statements whatsoever of this sort. Zapp - now give us some documentation or we will have to regard your statement as free phantasy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 18, 2007 Share #23 Posted October 18, 2007 Slightly off topic... What level of Income Taxes do Americans pay? In the UK, all income over around £36,000 is taxed at 40%, plus, there is 11% National insurance to pay on the first £36,000 of earnings. Plus, there is the local taxes, of, on average, around £1500 per household, and then, of course, there's VAT (Sales Tax) of 17.5% on virtually everything except food, books and children's clothes. Plus, there's duties on petrol and diesel, that now more than double the basic cost of the fuel (there's VAT on the duty, of course) Be interesting to know what proportion of income goes to the state in various countries around the world. Might help to put things into persepctive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 18, 2007 Share #24 Posted October 18, 2007 Undocumented statements like this one should not go unpunished by the moderators. Statements like the above must always be documented with a reference to the source, preferably in the form of a link. As far as I know, Leica has made no statements whatsoever of this sort. Zapp - now give us some documentation or we will have to regard your statement as free phantasy. I hope this isn't the "component change justification" nonsense again... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan States Posted October 18, 2007 Share #25 Posted October 18, 2007 ........ Dan, if I were you, I'd get a second (or third) job... AGAIN, the value of the dollar sucks. Currency units per U.S. dollar ............2000......2001.......2002......2003.......2004.......2005........2006 Euro...1.0832....1.1171....1.0578....0.8833....0.8040.....0.8033.....0.7960 Today the Euro is worth a dollar and a half, roughly. In 2001 a Euro was just about on par with the dollar. SO OF COURSE there have been price hikes by Leica here. Do you expect them to lose fifty cents on every dollar vs 2001? This isn't Leica's fault. The price of bread has doubled, gas has doubled (at least), milk prices are up, Porsches cost more. So blame Leica because they want to maintain their profit margin! Geex... Oh, and by the way, what's wrong with Bentley and Bugatti, besides the fact that you can't afford them? Let Comrade Lenin know, he will act to level the playing field for you. Who says I can't afford them? Sorry guys, but I'm not letting Leica off the hook that fast. There are TONS of German products selling in the US today for not THAT much more than they did in 2002. My last three Mercedes' have all been nearly the same price in that time frame and each one was better than the last in pretty much every way. Between 2002 and today many of Leica's prices have MORE THAN DOUBLED on products that have hardly changed (MP, M7, and the really sexy lenses). Guys, the Vario Elmar 35-70 F4 has gone up 70% in price and IT'S MADE IN JAPAN.... In any other business model companies try to maintain volume in times of weak margin by increasing productivity. That's not Leica's model because their consumer base today could care less about the price/performance ratio. (don't get in a lather, I'm one of them to some degree) It's a new business strategy, and god bless em if it works, but in an era when you can always get MORE next year for LESS money they are definitely targeting people with gobs of expendable income who are looking for a status symbol. I'll just say that I'm glad I bought my M8 for $4400 when I could. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted October 18, 2007 Share #26 Posted October 18, 2007 Slightly off topic... What level of Income Taxes do Americans pay? In the UK, all income over around £36,000 is taxed at 40%, plus, there is 11% National insurance to pay on the first £36,000 of earnings. Plus, there is the local taxes, of, on average, around £1500 per household, and then, of course, there's VAT (Sales Tax) of 17.5% on virtually everything except food, books and children's clothes. Plus, there's duties on petrol and diesel, that now more than double the basic cost of the fuel (there's VAT on the duty, of course) Be interesting to know what proportion of income goes to the state in various countries around the world. Might help to put things into persepctive. Comparisons get complicated as there are lots of variables. National tax and prices for things like appliances in the US are much less as there is no VAT, no one pays list price for anything and most of what we buy is now made in China. But private health insurance can cost you more then $12,000 a year easily for a crap plan no matter what income level you are at. Local taxes have to pay for the local schools and can be very high especially in cities. Things like unemployment are measured differently (if we used the German method our unemployment rate numbers would be much higher). It would be shocking to most Americans to find that recent statistics show economic upward mobility is now easier in Europe then in the land of opportunity that so many Europeans emigrated to in search of just that. Income inequality is increasing rapidly and there is tremendous downward pressure on income and it's not just in manufacturing any more. It is tremendously complicated and there are no easy answers Europe and Asia have many potential risks in their economic systems but the US right now is in the most unsustainable position and poses the greatest risk to global stability with it's bubble economy and stupendous debt levels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted October 18, 2007 Share #27 Posted October 18, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Slightly off topic... What level of Income Taxes do Americans pay? In the UK, all income over around £36,000 is taxed at 40%, plus, there is 11% National insurance to pay on the first £36,000 of earnings. Plus, there is the local taxes, of, on average, around £1500 per household, and then, of course, there's VAT (Sales Tax) of 17.5% on virtually everything except food, books and children's clothes. Plus, there's duties on petrol and diesel, that now more than double the basic cost of the fuel (there's VAT on the duty, of course) Be interesting to know what proportion of income goes to the state in various countries around the world. Might help to put things into persepctive. Andy, The income tax rate would typically be about 35 percent for that amount. We don't have national insurance, but private insurance through an employer would be a similar figure. (If you're lucky enough to have an employer who offers it.) Each state has its own income tax (level varies greatly), and its own sales tax, which varies between about 3 and 10 percent. I believe state and federal gas tax amounts to about half the cost of each gallon. We don't have a VAT, so that's where we come out a little better. Dana, I believe you've made a mistake; "Herr Shrub" isn't capitalized, it should be herr shrub. I'll look forward to seeing his name spelled correctly in your future posts. ;-) Thanks, Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pemayeux Posted October 18, 2007 Share #28 Posted October 18, 2007 Slightly off topic... What level of Income Taxes do Americans pay? In the UK, all income over around £36,000 is taxed at 40%, plus, there is 11% National insurance to pay on the first £36,000 of earnings. Plus, there is the local taxes, of, on average, around £1500 per household, and then, of course, there's VAT (Sales Tax) of 17.5% on virtually everything except food, books and children's clothes. Plus, there's duties on petrol and diesel, that now more than double the basic cost of the fuel (there's VAT on the duty, of course) Be interesting to know what proportion of income goes to the state in various countries around the world. Might help to put things into persepctive. well, not enough to cover the costs of spreading democracy and christianity... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pemayeux Posted October 18, 2007 Share #29 Posted October 18, 2007 I forgot to answer your question Andy, though it looks like Larry has to a degree. I paid (and this is fresh in my mind as my tax return just went off Monday) 28.5% in federal income taxes. Texas has no state income tax but makes up for it property taxes and sales taxes of about 8.25% which includes food, clothing etc. As Larry said there is no federal insurance so individuals have to cover that cost (mine - for myself and two kids is $1,000/month). There are also taxes on motor fuels, additional taxes on hotels and luxury items. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miami91 Posted October 18, 2007 Share #30 Posted October 18, 2007 I dislike "the shrub" as much as anybody, but I don't think the situation with respect to the US economy is as dire as some people are suggesting. And while Bush's economic policies certainly haven't helped, massive debt/poor savings rates, income inequality, shrinking of middle class, lousy health insurance policies, etc. are trends that far pre-dated his 7 years (so far) in office. A couple of thoughts: -- The US economy is *massive*. And damage can be undone very quickly. Bill Clinton inherited the largest national debt in our nations history, and within 5 years we were running federal surpluses. Unfortunately, now we're back in a hole (Iraq expenses, tax cuts for rich, etc.), but nothing that Clinton/Obama can't fix if the electorate has the common sense to give them a chance. --The situation isn't so dire for many Americans. Most of my social circle (educated professionals) are doing better than ever, and certainly better than my parents. Yes, we work long hours and have loads of stress, but salaries and bonuses are huge --- quid pro quo. The problem is that people without education and/or unique skills (plumbers, electricians, pro athletes, etc.) face greatly diminished prospects, and since the US has a shambles of a social safety net, these people face a harsh future. --The bubble economy (housing especially) and easy credit leading to massive debt is under serious market correction right now, and we'll be better off for it. Just as the Enron fiasco had value (more stringent accounting standards and focus on corporate ethics), just as the tech/internet stock implosion had value (companies with no track record of profits aren't so overvalued), so will the housing/credit shock. The American economy pretty regularly has it's perverse hiccups, but it always recovers. I don't see any credible challenger to American ingenuity and entrepreneurialism (China? India? please...), so I see no reason to beleive we won't continue to dominate the globe culturally, technologically, and militarily for generations to come, for better or worse. My two cents, respectfully. Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFashnReloaded Posted October 18, 2007 Share #31 Posted October 18, 2007 Slightly off topic... What level of Income Taxes do Americans pay? In the UK, all income over around £36,000 is taxed at 40%, plus, there is 11% National insurance to pay on the first £36,000 of earnings. Plus, there is the local taxes, of, on average, around £1500 per household, and then, of course, there's VAT (Sales Tax) of 17.5% on virtually everything except food, books and children's clothes. Plus, there's duties on petrol and diesel, that now more than double the basic cost of the fuel (there's VAT on the duty, of course) Be interesting to know what proportion of income goes to the state in various countries around the world. Might help to put things into persepctive. I make around $38k a year (£19), and a third of that goes to Fed and state taxes off the top. We have no real federal health insurance, we do not expect that the Social Security we pay into will be there when we retire, and of course we also pay between seven and ten percent in sales tax, and of course there is, because I'm a property owner, several thousand that go, instead of to mortgage, property taxes every year. Oh yes, we have it SO easy in the 'States! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFashnReloaded Posted October 18, 2007 Share #32 Posted October 18, 2007 Who says I can't afford them? Sorry guys, but I'm not letting Leica off the hook that fast. There are TONS of German products selling in the US today for not THAT much more than they did in 2002. My last three Mercedes' have all been nearly the same price in that time frame and each one was better than the last in pretty much every way. Between 2002 and today many of Leica's prices have MORE THAN DOUBLED on products that have hardly changed (MP, M7, and the really sexy lenses). Guys, the Vario Elmar 35-70 F4 has gone up 70% in price and IT'S MADE IN JAPAN.... In any other business model companies try to maintain volume in times of weak margin by increasing productivity. That's not Leica's model because their consumer base today could care less about the price/performance ratio. (don't get in a lather, I'm one of them to some degree) It's a new business strategy, and god bless em if it works, but in an era when you can always get MORE next year for LESS money they are definitely targeting people with gobs of expendable income who are looking for a status symbol. I'll just say that I'm glad I bought my M8 for $4400 when I could. Mercedes is a much bigger company that Leica, for one. They can live off of smaller profit margins. Oh my, I am SO SORRY that you have the ability to whine about a five thousand dollar camera body and talk about your LAST THREE MERCEDES in the same breath. You are a whiner, sir. I have no sympathy for you, you bloated wallet, or your inability to comprehend basic economics. Please go back to your gated community and your house in the suburbs. We who want a Leica Mx but would spend more than a quarter of our yearly salaries (after taxes) to buy a body and a single lens salute you. Pity that the Chrysler debacle didn't sink Mercedes, I've never been fond of their cars, but a company that can spend billions, and then in a few years just dump the purchase with a ninety percent loss and keep on ticking certainly isn't really hurting, are they? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miami91 Posted October 18, 2007 Share #33 Posted October 18, 2007 I make around $38k a year (£19), and a third of that goes to Fed and state taxes off the top. We have no real federal health insurance, we do not expect that the Social Security we pay into will be there when we retire, and of course we also pay between seven and ten percent in sales tax, and of course there is, because I'm a property owner, several thousand that go, instead of to mortgage, property taxes every year. Oh yes, we have it SO easy in the 'States! Dana, No offense, but this is disingenuous. Sales tax in Indiana is 6%, local sales tax in Indianapolis is 1% (which you pay only on purchases within city limits). And food and prescription drugs are not taxed. So this does not add up to "7 to 10 percent". Additionally, property taxes and mortgage interest is deductible on federal and state tax returns, which makes home ownership quite a boondoggle. And even though you may get one third of your salary taken off the top in taxes, you certainly don't pay this in the end. The top marginal federal income tax rate for 74k a year (almost twice what you claim to earn) is 25%, and the effective rate is below 20% (because you pay on the lower brackets of 10% and 15% up to their respective income limits). Finally, although the future of Social Security is anybody's guess, in the 70 years of its existence (original act signed by FDR in 1935) it has been about the only social program that no politician is willing to mess with, perhaps to our society's detriment. I wouldn't expect this to change in the future (and I'm in my thirties myself). Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastFashnReloaded Posted October 18, 2007 Share #34 Posted October 18, 2007 Dana, No offense, but this is disingenuous. Sales tax in Indiana is 6%, local sales tax in Indianapolis is 1% (which you pay only on purchases within city limits). And food and prescription drugs are not taxed. So this does not add up to "7 to 10 percent". Additionally, property taxes and mortgage interest is deductible on federal and state tax returns, which makes home ownership quite a boondoggle. And even though you may get one third of your salary taken off the top in taxes, you certainly don't pay this in the end. The top marginal federal income tax rate for 74k a year (almost twice what you claim to earn) is 25%, and the effective rate is below 20% (because you pay on the lower brackets of 10% and 15% up to their respective income limits). Finally, although the future of Social Security is anybody's guess, in the 70 years of its existence (original act signed by FDR in 1935) it has been about the only social program that no politician is willing to mess with, perhaps to our society's detriment. I wouldn't expect this to change in the future (and I'm in my thirties myself). Jeff. In part you are correct. I went back and looked at a pay stub, and "only" 28% of my salary goes by the way to the government and such every week. Someone has to pay for the damnable war, after all, at a cost per person in this country of... I don't even want to calculate it. Ten billion dollars a month (that we know of)... That leaves me with $27,000 per year. After the mortgage, I have about $12,000 per year. Gasoline cost about $30 per week... $10,410 per year left. After food and basics, $6410 is left. Gee, back to one M8 body and half a lens. So, don't tell me I'm being disingenuous, hmmm? My dad supported, pretty damn well, a family of four off of what I'm making now. Today, you want to have any extras like a nice camera, or a new car, off of $6,000? For the goddess sake, DON'T GET SICK! Don't have a kid! Now, this is Indy. Housing is "fairly" cheap. Try living on the coasts or something. At least I can afford a house! So, forgive me if I'm not entirely and completely sympathetic to Mr. Three Mercedes and his outrage at the price of a camera body. PS - The SS trust fund is empty and full of IOUs. The only reason we can still pay anything out is that more people are (still) paying into it than living off of it. That's about to change for the worse. PPS - Yes, I am PO'd. Costs up, there are no raises to speak of, one of my cameras developed a single pixel vertical line thru the entire frame (sensor screw up) and had to go back to Oly today, last week I replaced both rear calipers on my car... Grrrr. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pemayeux Posted October 18, 2007 Share #35 Posted October 18, 2007 yeah, I kinda think of Social Security as that suitcase full of IOUs at the end of the movie "Dumb and Dumber"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted October 18, 2007 Share #36 Posted October 18, 2007 I dislike "the shrub" as much as anybody, but I don't think the situation with respect to the US economy is as dire as some people are suggesting. And while Bush's economic policies certainly haven't helped, massive debt/poor savings rates, income inequality, shrinking of middle class, lousy health insurance policies, etc. are trends that far pre-dated his 7 years (so far) in office. A couple of thoughts: -- The US economy is *massive*. And damage can be undone very quickly. Bill Clinton inherited the largest national debt in our nations history, and within 5 years we were running federal surpluses. Unfortunately, now we're back in a hole (Iraq expenses, tax cuts for rich, etc.), but nothing that Clinton/Obama can't fix if the electorate has the common sense to give them a chance. The transformation of the American economy from a Production economy to a Ponzi scheme with the Fed inflating new bubbles to forestall the impact of the previous follies began before Bush. He's just accelerated the day of reckoning by a lot. Yes the US economy is massive and reselient but there are limits to everything. I expect even if we see a recession that the US equity markets will be on a positive tear for another few years. However there will come a time when we will be out of bubbles and the piper will have to be paid. Like a patient that refuses to take his medicine because it will be painful if you wait to long it could be to late. --The situation isn't so dire for many Americans. Most of my social circle (educated professionals) are doing better than ever, and certainly better than my parents. Yes, we work long hours and have loads of stress, but salaries and bonuses are huge --- quid pro quo. The problem is that people without education and/or unique skills (plumbers, electricians, pro athletes, etc.) face greatly diminished prospects, and since the US has a shambles of a social safety net, these people face a harsh future. The impact of globalization is moving up the income and skills ladder. We are just at the beginning of the curve. I talked to a web marketing executive the other day, he had just had lunch with 3 friends -all senior designers making 6 figures. All of them at different companies have been served notice - take a 40% pay cut or see you and your creative department outsourced. Poland, Phillipines, Bulgaria, India, I've seen work going to all these countries. I expect the top percentiles to continue to do better and better while an ever larger segment of the population (80%) sees their living standard shrink despite a 'good' economy. The US has had a stable political system and an economy that has been the envy of the world thanks to an ever growing, fat and happy middle class. If present trends continue we could have a very disgruntled population and some scary prospects both political and economical. I don't see any credible challenger to American ingenuity and entrepreneurialism (China? India? please...), so I see no reason to beleive we won't continue to dominate the globe culturally, technologically, and militarily for generations to come, for better or worse. My two cents, respectfully. Jeff. Get a clue. A lot of the movers and shakers and prime innovators in the microcomputer and internet revolutions in the US were immigrants from India and China. That kind of arrogant exceptionalism marks the end of every empire. At the turn of the last century the British thought that the British Pound would forever be the foundation of the world economy and that British culture, technology, industry and might would be preeminent forever. They never saw the end coming, they where blinded by the conviction of every imperial peoples that they are 'special'. The Chinese are every bit as capable of innovation and creativity as Americans. Art Basel is coming up in Miami, the preeminent galleries of the international art market and their master of the universe clients will all be there dropping millions on artwork like it was nickel candy. Guess where the hottest new artists are coming from? China. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miami91 Posted October 18, 2007 Share #37 Posted October 18, 2007 Dana, I think you and I probably have similar politics, and as I (hopefully) conveyed in an earlier post, I also am greatly concerned about our trending inequality. I am not a gated community suburbanite --- I live in downtown Minneapolis. And although I admittedly live in an expensive condo, I have a homeless shelter three blocks away, street people living under the freeway overpass right across from my building, get panhandled nearly every time I walk the streets of my 'hood, etc. So I'm all too aware of the problems. Nevertheless, I'm of the opinion that neither the problems nor the solutions are easy to identify or implement. And I also think that to some degree, Americans have made their own bed (not talking about you or your family here). Why does the average family need 2500 square feet of home? Why is having a large screen flat panel tele the norm? Why does an average family need 3 autos? And why does every person need to carry Louis Vuitton, drive expensive cars (on lease), etc. and so on? Clearly, this is good for the powers that be, but at some point the American consumer needs to take responsibility for his/her level of indebtedness. The norm of consumption in our society has been radically redefined in just a generation. Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 18, 2007 Share #38 Posted October 18, 2007 Back on Topic. Why should M8 users brace themselves??!! WE already own one or more M8's. As far as I'm concerned I like the price increase. That make the 2 I own worth more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted October 18, 2007 Share #39 Posted October 18, 2007 We can talk until we're blue in the face about how much is too much to pay for the M8, or anything else, but the bottom line is that the value of ANYTHING is what the buyer is willing to pay. When people decide the price is too high, they will stop buying and the price will come down. Simple economics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miami91 Posted October 18, 2007 Share #40 Posted October 18, 2007 The transformation of the American economy from a Production economy to a Ponzi scheme with the Fed inflating new bubbles to forestall the impact of the previous follies began before Bush. He's just accelerated the day of reckoning by a lot. Yes the US economy is massive and reselient but there are limits to everything. I expect even if we see a recession that the US equity markets will be on a positive tear for another few years. However there will come a time when we will be out of bubbles and the piper will have to be paid. Like a patient that refuses to take his medicine because it will be painful if you wait to long it could be to late. The impact of globalization is moving up the income and skills ladder. We are just at the beginning of the curve. I talked to a web marketing executive the other day, he had just had lunch with 3 friends -all senior designers making 6 figures. All of them at different companies have been served notice - take a 40% pay cut or see you and your creative department outsourced. Poland, Phillipines, Bulgaria, India, I've seen work going to all these countries. I expect the top percentiles to continue to do better and better while an ever larger segment of the population (80%) sees their living standard shrink despite a 'good' economy. The US has had a stable political system and an economy that has been the envy of the world thanks to an ever growing, fat and happy middle class. If present trends continue we could have a very disgruntled population and some scary prospects both political and economical. Get a clue. A lot of the movers and shakers and prime innovators in the microcomputer and internet revolutions in the US were immigrants from India and China. That kind of arrogant exceptionalism marks the end of every empire. At the turn of the last century the British thought that the British Pound would forever be the foundation of the world economy and that British culture, technology, industry and might would be preeminent forever. They never saw the end coming, they where blinded by the conviction of every imperial peoples that they where 'special'. The Chinese are every bit as capable of innovation and creativity as Americans. Art Basel is coming up in Miami, the preeminent galleries of the international art market and their master of the universe clients will all be there dropping millions on artwork like it was nickel candy. Guess where the hottest new artists are coming from? China. Hank, I'm not sure that we are too far apart on our opinions, just different shades. But just to respond: -- I agree about the Ponzi scheme, but not that it's any worse or different. There are corrections happening as we speak. The inflated housing industry we've been riding has corrected itself, cheap credit is drying up, etc. However, to me this is all on the margins. And yes, the piper will have to be paid, just like in the Clinton years. And guess what? We have the money (collectively) to pay him/her. --I agree with you about the impact of globalization and the shrinking middle class, but I don't think the rate of change is as drastic as you indicate. And I also think there are things that can be done about it, as soon as there's will. If there is a tipping point, it will come along well before we have an 80/20 split in society. --Agree about movers and shakers being immigrants. But the key word in your sentence is "were". Now they're Americans as certain as you or I are. --My dismissal of China and India is not xenophobia or disrespect for their creative talents! Just that compared to the inequality and domestic challenges in India or China, the USA is an egalitarian society. Talk about the piper needing to be paid --- there are serious schisms in those societies that will erupt (and already are). Remember not so long ago we were all wringing our hands about the Japanese threat? Didn't materialise did it? --Finally, what killed the British Empire was not excess arrogance, it was the crushing loss of treasure and life in WWI and WWII. Now, I grant you that this may indeed be the undoing of the American empire if we're not careful. But I fully expect our overseas foibles to cease once there's a new occupant on Pennsylvania Avenue. Respectfully, Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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