wattsy Posted October 17, 2007 Share #41 Posted October 17, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yes Metro is a fine lab (though Joe's Basement was always better value - and now closed In my experience Joe's Basement (Soho branch) was crap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 17, 2007 Posted October 17, 2007 Hi wattsy, Take a look here Sshhh - quiet. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
yeungkeefu Posted October 17, 2007 Share #42 Posted October 17, 2007 I have my quiet mode in D2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share #43 Posted October 17, 2007 Last thoughts and one last attempt... 1/ OK - Joe's Basement screwed up sometimes, but Metro was always so expensive... and it did offer a 24/7 service in those heady days when you needed reliable E6 processing or a quick set of contacts (with keylines...) off a few rolls of Neopan NOW, not tomorrow, not next week, but now... Can you still get that in London? The last time I wanted to get pro processing for B&W people were talking days rather than hours - and it was SO expensive... I want to stay digital.. 2/ Sean - thanks for the recommendation - maybe the Sony's something to consider (anyone tried the Canon G9 yet?), but I suppose I jib at the idea because I bought the M8 to do these kind of jobs... I don't want to have yet another system and buy into any more digital planned obsolescence. At least with my SLR and RF systems, the GLASS is good for more than 5 years... 3/ Shooting style - ttriolo - fully agree that you have to time those moments - and this applies to weddings, concerts, press, documentary -- most moments when you don't want to damage relationships or mood with a whopping kerlunk!.. I keep on working at it. 4/ BUT - no one's yet actually said if they have any idea if Leica is looking seriously (even considering the feasibility) of giving the CURRENT M8 a quiet(er) mode through firmware. Sean, Guy, are there any hints, any straws in the wind? I'm not going to throw my M8s away if Leica have no plans or consider it completely unfeasible with the present design - they're still pretty damn good. It's just that if know that there's no quiet mode on the horizon at least I'll stop hoping for quiet little birds in far away bushes, and get on with using and appreciating the functional, though noisier than I'd like, bird I'm lucky enough to have in my hands now. The rest is silence?..... Best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Essemmlee Posted October 17, 2007 Share #44 Posted October 17, 2007 no one's yet actually said if they have any idea if Leica is looking seriously (even considering the feasibility) of giving the CURRENT M8 a quiet(er) mode through firmware. Since when has Leica given advance warning of any improvements to the M8 via it's upgrades? Come to think of it - they haven't actually told us after the upgrade what the upgrade actually did!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy Posted October 17, 2007 Share #45 Posted October 17, 2007 I really love the implication in some of these posts that the M8's ASTONISHINGLY LOUD SHUTTER is somehow in the mind of the photographer, and that positive thinking, maths, or fine Italian leather can make it less of an issue! I started a thread on this a while back. Heads turn when the camera goes off and people are less than, let's say, ten yards away. Scar-tissued into my memory is the heavily sarcastic comment, "Hey, Guy, do you think you could've got a louder camera?" That said, I do agree that a bit of jazz ought to help cover it. Just try to synchronise with the syncopation Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share #46 Posted October 17, 2007 Guy - have to agree. And Essemmlee - we can dream can't we (or at least ask our well connected friends)... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted October 17, 2007 Share #47 Posted October 17, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Chris - Your sensitivity to your working environment does you credit, and many of us think Leica got it seriously wrong regarding the M8 noise - so I hope there is a positive answer to your posed questions. In another life I used to shoot jazz and know from experience that often the best photographic moments present themselves in the quietest passages, for what it's worth; I too lost a lot of those photographs feeling that it wasn't my right to affect other peoples enjoyment with camera noise. Other photographers take a more ruthless stance, and I'm sure I'm not the only person to have had a concert hall experience spoilt by a photographer in the stalls obliviously motordriving without a care for the hall's customers. I have no answer for you. Leica made the M8 too noisy, this thread is sending them a clear message from M8 users. Hope you find a workable compromise. .................. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 17, 2007 Share #48 Posted October 17, 2007 As an engineer, my opinion is that hardware changes to the M8 are out of the question. The motor wind and shutter lock nestle into the front casting like a hand in glove and are secured using 3 or 4 screws. There's no space for acoustic damping or compliant mounting. We've already seen that firmware changes to increase the time between the unlock and initial release have subjectively made the noise worse but were required to optimise the shutter action. As I've tried to explain, delaying the shutter wind will help but the M8 will still be a noisy old thing. The Leica is shown to be particularly noisy if you compare it with a Nikon D2x. Lock the mirror up and then release the shutter on a long exposure. It's whisper quiet on that initial release. The best we can hope for is that Leica have taken the criticism on board and do a better job with the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 17, 2007 Share #49 Posted October 17, 2007 Hi Chris, you wrote: "Sean - thanks for the recommendation - maybe the Sony's something to consider (anyone tried the Canon G9 yet?), but I suppose I jib at the idea because I bought the M8 to do these kind of jobs... I don't want to have yet another system and buy into any more digital planned obsolescence. At least with my SLR and RF systems, the GLASS is good for more than 5 years..." Some of this response is to you and some is just to the forum in general. As you know, this question of shutter noise is something I've stressed in most of my cameras reviews ever since I began writing them. In fact, I tried to stress this particular advantage of the Oly E-1. The M8 is certainly not the loudest digital camera on the market, it's not even close. Its shutter sound is less noticeable than that of many DSLRs (when each one is used normally) except for cameras such as the Canon 10D and Olympus E1. I haven't found the M8's shutter sound to pose a problem for my work at all but we're all different. I stressed this question of shutter noise starting when I spoke with Leica about the M digital in 2004. The M8 is a step in the right direction but the M9 should be quieter. Still, when I tested with human subjects, the M8's noise was less noticeable than that of the R-D1. But, if the M8 is not quiet enough for a given photographer's work, that's that and he or she might want to consider working with another body as well. Wishing won't make it so, of course. Right now, Chris, that seems to be the boat you're in. This whole business of separating the shutter sound from the winding sound (as a way to make a camera quieter) holds little interest for me. Consider two settings where shutter noise can be problematic, a piano performance and a church wedding ceremony. Should one expect to step outside the room to let the camera cock its shutter between each exposure? I need the camera to be able to respond when I tell it to, waiting around for a good place or time to let it cock its shutter would be completely unworkable for me. At a church wedding ceremony, for example, one might be making 50 - 100 exposures (that's a lot of trips outside to let the shutter cock and a lot of missed pictures). So when we talk about the sound of various shutters (without the shutter cocking sound) we are, I would argue, really looking at theoretical and academic information. Its perhaps an interesting feature for someone who needs to make one, and only one, exposure in a quiet setting. The fact is that is D2X or 1Ds, in real-world use, is going to have a much more noticeable shutter/cocking sound than an M8. I know this for sure because I've used both types of cameras side by side on assignments. To answer your direct question Chris, I have absolutely no reason to believe that Leica will be introducing a quieter version of the M8. If the M8 is still too loud for that work you're doing (even muffled in a case) than you might want to add another camera or system as well. I myself never rely on just one system for all of my work. Right now I use two, M8s and R-D1s plus various lenses for RF work and Canon DSLRs for other work. My wife, also a pro (and a busy one this year) uses all Canon. Next year, we may revise the SLR systems a bit. The small sensor cameras can be near silent but none of them, that I've tested, provide clean and detailed files at high ISO. The G9 should be getting here soon for testing but I don't think its going to be your silver bullet. Small sensor cameras make rougher drawings at high ISO. That's their nature. There might some day be a tech development that changes this, for some cameras, but its not here now. So, if you need to deliver clean and detailed high ISO files to your clients, forget the small sensor cameras for now. Manufacturers who claim clean files from these cameras at high ISO levels are misleading us. They're just smoothing the life out of JPEG files. The Canon 10D was fairly quiet but the Oly E-1 has been the king of quiet among DSLRs. The new E3 might be really interesting if it is as quiet as the E-1. You might want to keep an eye on the E3. The E1's shutter noise is less noticeable than even an M7. Otherwise, the only truly quiet (near silent) camera with a (roughly) APS-C or larger sized sensor is the Sony R1. The Sony has its weaknesses for sure (see my review) but it can deliver quite good file quality at ISO 800 and decent quality at 1600. It comes with its own fixed Zeiss lens and the whole thing used, on E-Bay, is probably about $700 - $800. In other words, it costs much less than many lenses alone. Again, see the review, because the camera is not perfect but I'd at least look into the R1 and E3. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share #50 Posted October 17, 2007 Sean - thanks for this. As ever, thoughtful, thought provoking and intelligent. I've read you're review of the R1 - and like the images a lot - and there's one for sale on UK ebay I may bid for. Issue here is likely to be the SLOW RAW write... re your comment on the re-cock. I truly don't think it needs to be a case of going out of the room. Even the M7 manual re-wind can be an annoyance and in quiet settings I've frequently brought the camera down from my eye and under a jacket to wind on... This I'd LOVE to be able to do with the M8. I know empirically that the M6 and M8 shutter clunk are really pretty close - set the M8 on B, hold it for a bit, and then release and you'll hear that the shutter itself is OK, just a dry, unobtrusive clunk. For me it's the release PLUS the whirr kerchunk of the re-cock that's the problem. Separate them and "hide" the camera during re-wind and it's so much better (I've just scientifically checked this with my wife - she agrees, and as she's right on everything don't anyone dare to disagree!! ) re Mark's comments on damping - hey, that's how it goes - but please dear lord, let's have a couple of years at least before an M9... I can't afford to play catch up here... And so it goes... PLEASE you good folk at Solms - I do hope that you're following this discussion. For those of us who bought the M8 because of our love of a discrete working style, we really, really need your help. Pretty please? Best, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 17, 2007 Share #51 Posted October 17, 2007 Sean - thanks for this. As ever, thoughtful, thought provoking and intelligent. I've read you're review of the R1 - and like the images a lot - and there's one for sale on UK ebay I may bid for. Issue here is likely to be the SLOW RAW write... re your comment on the re-cock. I truly don't think it needs to be a case of going out of the room. Even the M7 manual re-wind can be an annoyance and in quiet settings I've frequently brought the camera down from my eye and under a jacket to wind on... This I'd LOVE to be able to do with the M8. I know empirically that the M6 and M8 shutter clunk are really pretty close - set the M8 on B, hold it for a bit, and then release and you'll hear that the shutter itself is OK, just a dry, unobtrusive clunk. For me it's the release PLUS the whirr kerchunk of the re-cock that's the problem. Separate them and "hide" the camera during re-wind and it's so much better (I've just scientifically checked this with my wife - she agrees, and as she's right on everything don't anyone dare to disagree!! ) re Mark's comments on damping - hey, that's how it goes - but please dear lord, let's have a couple of years at least before an M9... I can't afford to play catch up here... And so it goes... PLEASE you good folk at Solms - I do hope that you're following this discussion. For those of us who bought the M8 because of our love of a discrete working style, we really, really need your help. Pretty please? Best, Yes, the R1 is slow and RAW and also delays itself a couple of seconds after every exposure (screen freezes). But, it is almost silent. Pros and cons... Optional manual shutter cocking on an M9 would be very interesting. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted October 17, 2007 Share #52 Posted October 17, 2007 Chris, I say if you have an M6 (or 7) then going and shooting a few rolls of film ain't going to kill ya. You'll esp get nice stuff with some Neopan 1600. Have the film scanned to disc (vs contact sheets) and then plop it into your digital workflow. Beyond the annoying noise of the M8, another thing that is annoying about digital cameras to other people present in an intimate situation is the chimping, esp if you are down in front. And lets face it, we all chimp given the opportunity. But with a film camera one tends to be more present and focused on the subject. Anyway, I had to shoot seven rolls of color neg last night but it was mostly due to my M8 being back to Leica. I actually could have used it (it was an editorial job under difficult light with an AD in tow) but it was also nice to have my 24 be a 24 and 35 a 35 and know that my compositions would be tight. I think this wholesale rejection of film and film cameras is just as stupid a thing as film purists and their wholesale rejection of anything digital. Both have their place. I shot a friend's wedding recently, and while they loved all the photos I took (mostly with M8) they were floored by the several rolls I took with my Rolleiflex TLR and the one iconic shot of their love for each other was with the M7 on Neopan 400. Anyway, I still think even the M7 WITH MOTOR is quieter than the M8. There's just something about the metallic clack that sets it apart even from the big dslrs. It's a shame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy Posted October 17, 2007 Share #53 Posted October 17, 2007 PLEASE you good folk at Solms - I do hope that you're following this discussion. For those of us who bought the M8 because of our love of a discrete working style, we really, really need your help. Pretty please? Thoroughly seconded! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted October 18, 2007 Share #54 Posted October 18, 2007 Maybe Mark Norton can opine on this-would it be possible to cock the shutter slowly with the current hardware? iow, a pulse current applied to the motor to slowly cock the shutter. Did not the konica hexar have this for film wind on as an option? I don't believe the M8 will ever be as quiet as an M7, the cloth rubber curtain does not move as fast as the M8, there is less energy to dissipate in braking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelvin Posted October 18, 2007 Share #55 Posted October 18, 2007 Chris, have you tried renting a Jacobson Blimp for your SLR? I work in the film industry where they can use super sensitive mikes very close to where you need to be. Even the blimp isn't silent, but in a tight spot it beats the Leica for hands down. Not pleasant to use but effective. I can only use the Leica on rehearsals or outside locations at a distance. I've also used the Digilux 2, even in a sound studio, but the shutter delay is infuriating, requiring more anticipation of the subject than I can usually muster. Writing to RAW takes 6 secs so it's doubly frustrating, but silent at least. That's my 4p worth. Good luck! Kelvin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 18, 2007 Share #56 Posted October 18, 2007 Maybe Mark Norton can opine on this-would it be possible to cock the shutter slowly with the current hardware? iow, a pulse current applied to the motor to slowly cock the shutter. Interesting question, pulse width modulation is an efficient technique for controlling motor speeds and providing there was suffiicient torque margin (so that it didn't actually stall), pulsing the motor could be used to slow it down. There's a small flywheel in the gear-train to provide some built-in inertia. However, the driver chip used to run it - a Sanyo LB1843 originally designed for tape loading motors in video cameras - has two control lines to set the one of four modes (off, forwards, backwards and braked) and whether PWM could be used depends on whether both control lines are implemented back to the micro. If there was only one, which would provide "forward" and "braked" (so that the motor stops quickly at the end of the wind-on), using PWM probably wouldn't work properly. Namiki, the manufacturers of the motor, do talk about driving their motors with PWM so it's something which is done (but with a warning about operational life), so it would certainly be interesting to know whether a menu/profile selected "slow shutter wind" option would be effective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwright Posted October 18, 2007 Share #57 Posted October 18, 2007 Interesting question, pulse width modulation is an efficient technique for controlling motor speeds and providing there was suffiicient torque margin (so that it didn't actually stall), pulsing the motor could be used to slow it down. There's a small flywheel in the gear-train to provide some built-in inertia. However, the driver chip used to run it - a Sanyo LB1843 originally designed for tape loading motors in video cameras - has two control lines to set the one of four modes (off, forwards, backwards and braked) and whether PWM could be used depends on whether both control lines are implemented back to the micro. If there was only one, which would provide "forward" and "braked" (so that the motor stops quickly at the end of the wind-on), using PWM probably wouldn't work properly. Namiki, the manufacturers of the motor, do talk about driving their motors with PWM so it's something which is done (but with a warning about operational life), so it would certainly be interesting to know whether a menu/profile selected "slow shutter wind" option would be effective. days of playing with model trains as kids taught me about pwm:) downside is the motors tend to run hotter and make a noise that is different from normal running. But you would probably need to strain to hear it inside the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSee Posted October 18, 2007 Share #58 Posted October 18, 2007 Without contest, the M8 is loud enough to be noticed--and this post may have come well after Chris' shoot!--louder than my film Ms and wife's Canon P&S. What has not been said is the noise of (the expected) flash, noise much worse than the M8(without flash): folks hear well--unless damaged by "Personal Audio Devices"--and will distinguish ANY "click", "click, whirrghslumph", or "clickschlizumph" from other "more natural sounds", whether in a quite jazz venue, or the "Great Outdoors". Simply put, it is the surprise that the obvious camera "click" is heard when the Offended(sic) cannot understand HOW the photog COULD make a picture without a flash as root cause for the Offence. Cause and Effect, modus ponens. If one, as I have, takes "the position" of making a snap, it is noticed... with a black or chrome bodied M, wheter M4 or M8. I cannot speak for birds or other "Wildlife", but humans, the awake, know what's what. BUT, without a flash?! What, WHAT? In "poor" lighted places, the "click", however loud, is more present to the subject because of what they /know/ about photography... know to be /normal/. As for music and (music? and )dance, with lighting "fit for the performance", this "photog-in-position" awareness is, perhaps, more about that role "in the score", than the timbre of the instrument. The "noise" of a larger DSLR outweighs the "near silence" of its shutter... or so I've, ah, noticed. rgds, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 18, 2007 Author Share #59 Posted October 18, 2007 Well folks - the good news was that I have a good working relationship with the Trio and we were able to do a shoot before the concert. I worked with the M8 + 28/f2 and the 5D + 85/f1.2 switching between ... and got some images that work (IMHO). During the concert I was up high in a balcony looking down on the stage (a very intimate hexagonal space where it's unacceptable to work from the front - you can get a sense of it here: Royal Northern College of Music - Haden Freeman Concert Hall) so ended up using the longest lens I had with me (70-200/2.8) on the 1D2 giving an effective 280.. + the M8 with the 28 for some context shots. If anyone's interested in seeing these, I've put up a selection here:Tord Gustavsen Trio. For an immediate sense of the GOOD things that the M8 can do, there's a couple of shots below - the first one is the set-up, the second during the pre-concert. Black and white here - but, for the record, the colour held up remarkably well in rather horrid muted lighting. Lessons learned. Well... can't really call them lessons, but conclusions anyway. 1/ Really quiet concerts are tough. We knew that anyway, so negotiate pre-concert access! 2/ The M8, DSLRs, even the M7 can be too noisy for intimate environments (though again, interested to see how the new "quiet" mode DSLRs shape up...) 3/ Consider renting a blimp for critical work (+ for this venue, a very fast long lens - I have enjoyed working with the Canon 300/f2.8 from time to time - and the new 200 f2 could be fun) 4/ Consider Sean's advice on the R1. And for the record, once again, my M8 did the business, didn't fail, didn't have locked SD cards or anything else. When I go to Bangladesh and Sri Lanka at the end of the week (non-photo work trips), the only camera I'll take with me will be an M8 + 3 or 4 lenses, neatly packed away in a tiny Domke satchel. Makes me remember why I bought this noisy, unreliable, poorly engineered tool ( ). Thanks to all those who have contributed to this really interesting discussion... Chris.. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/35806-sshhh-quiet/?do=findComment&comment=379512'>More sharing options...
Stevez4 Posted October 18, 2007 Share #60 Posted October 18, 2007 Hi Chris Nice work. But as I've said before, the shutter is a primary concern of Leica shooters who work as journalists and we are no longer the focus of Leica mgmt. or this forum. I remember when Nixon stopped a press conference at the White House to eject a photog with a noisy camera. Garry Winnogrand used to walk around with his Leica held in a black gloved hand often. Actually the glove muffled the sound as well as made the camera less obvious. I find a black leather glove with the the thumb and forefinginger cut off does the job. And I seriously doubt that there is no fix possible for those of us willing to pay for it. There is just no one willing to experiment. Try the black lined leather glove. Its cheap and effective, and does not require a degree in engineering. Sorry I missed the Tate show. Back in the USA fr a month of businness. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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