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Sshhh - quiet


chris_tribble

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I have a concert shoot with a very quiet jazz trio (Tord Gustavsen Trio) coming up. I've worked with them before (see image below) and am very concerned about the NOISE of the M8 - not the digital kind but the very audible kind that happens when the shutter is re-cocked.

 

I was wondering if anyone out there had any information on:

A/ if Leica is even considering a quiet mode (shooter release / re-cock as a press / release process) in a future firmware

B/ WHEN this might happen.

 

Really grateful for any updates on this. I'm not going to be getting rid of the M8 if it never happens - but it would be nice to know. I KNOW I could go back to using my M7 - but that's how it would feel to work with film - going back.

 

Best

 

C:

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Hi Chris

For what it's worth, it seems to me that the M8 shutter noise (terrible though it is) is much more of an issue for the photographer than the victim. That dreadful pertoing noise of the shutter re-cocking doesn't seem to be that audible to anyone who doesn't have their head attached to the camera.

 

Quiet as the Tord Gustavsen Trio are, I'd be pretty surprised if the M8 shutter noise was an issue (of course, I could be wrong!).

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Chris,

 

You may want to check out one of those Luigi half cases. To my ears they muffle the sound considerably. I didn't buy one for that reason, but it is a nice side benefit. I shot without the case the other day and was shocked at how loud the M8 was.

 

Robert

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I did a little test just now, and the noise is reduced quite a bit when I put my optech neoprene case on. Particularly the higher pitch click/whine, it becomes more of a soft clunky noise.

 

I think that a reasonable interim solution might be to have a custom neoprene bodycase made up, with a flap that peels back for access to the screen and wheel.

 

David

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I've heard nothing about a quieter M8 (other than the wishes for it).

 

As an audience member, I probably wouldn't hear the M8 during louder passages, but would be annoyed at a photographer's lack of consideration to hear the M8 clicking during soft passages.

 

I guess I'd use the M7, and even then limit shooting during quiet parts.

 

Good luck and have fun!

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Chris - I find the Luigi case does dampen things quite a bit. Whilst the trio have their quiet moments, they can really get going on occasion - a very different experience live than on disc. Have seen them several times now and although not as loud as E.S.T., say, they were fairly loud in the diverse venues where I have seem them.

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Hi Chris

For what it's worth, it seems to me that the M8 shutter noise (terrible though it is) is much more of an issue for the photographer than the victim. That dreadful pertoing noise of the shutter re-cocking doesn't seem to be that audible to anyone who doesn't have their head attached to the camera.

 

Quiet as the Tord Gustavsen Trio are, I'd be pretty surprised if the M8 shutter noise was an issue (of course, I could be wrong!).

 

In acoustics, the sound pressure of a spherical wavefront radiating from a point source decreases by a factor of ½ as the distance r is doubled, or measured in dB it would decrease by 6.02 dB. The behaviour is not inverse-square, but is inverse-proportional.

 

The M8 sounds horribly loud with it pressed to your forehead, but the sound drops by half as the distance is doubled. For example: let say you have 10cm from the camera to your ears. Minimum focusing distance for most lenses is .7m. At 20cm from the camera, the sound of the shutter is 1/2 as loud; at 40cm, it's 1/4 as loud, and at 80cm (just past minimum focusing distance), it's 1/8 as loud. Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

I have found that unless you are in an acoustically perfect opera house, most folks at normal distances cannot hear you click the shutter.

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Carlos, I like the math. However, at a concert last spring the sound of the M8 turned out to be problematic.

 

I was shooting in-concert -- because there had been a snowstorm in Boston and the dress rehearsal the previous night had been cancelled.

 

This particular concert is a collaboration between a dance department and the lighting and sound production departments at a university. Therefore, because the lighting guys need pix for their portfolios, they hired a guy to shoot during the first performance.

 

Admittedly, the audience was a bit sparse on this night, but nevertheless the Canon something-or-other that the photog was using sounded like a cannon. I was sitting by the bride and, hearing this thing going off around the theater, decided to take some pix myself.

 

She complained about the noise of my M8 and I responded that it was quieter than the cannon in the back. She didn't really calm down, but I sort of got off the hook.

 

Howvever, her ear was about a meter away from the M8 and she was identifying it as an undesirable sound source.

 

In addition, when I have sone some studio shots with the M8, at the time when I go into the picture space to hold a WhiBal card, I can hear the shutter from 8 feet away (2 meters for those who are 'Murican-measure impaired). In a quiet passage of music, I would definitely be wary of shooting.

 

And, about the M7, a couple of years ago when I was in the front row of the audience, and the bride was 15 feet away in the balcony, she got thoroughly pissed when I took pictures with my M6. No rest for the guilty.

 

For what it's worth, I have noticed that the sound of the M8 differs depending on the lens mounted. So, I would say we could do with a dose of soundproffing in the chamber of the camera.

 

Also, there is some consensus here that thie camera would benefit from being quieter.

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Oh, I'm not denying that the M8 can be loud (under certain circumstances), but that a 10% sound level reduction at the source translates to a substantial rediction in noise at distance mathematically.

 

Also remember the relative effect of quiet music. Since the performance is subtle, one concentrates more on the music to hear it clearly. The M8 did not get louder, every one is paying attention more.

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I used the M8 at an open-air opera this summer in Verona and it was clearly distracting to people close by. I think it's unfortunate the M8 is as noisy as it is and I'm not sure the delayed motor wind is the answer.

 

Try setting the camera to 4s on 12s self-timer and set it running, then go, say, 10 feet away. That initial "thuck!" is much louder than I would like, and that has nothing to do with the shutter closing and motor wind. Separate the two out, and I think it's the initial release which is more intrusive.

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Chris,

 

The M8 may be quiet enough but if isn't (and if you do a lot of this kind of photography) consider picking up a used Sony R1. It has nearly an APS-C sized sensor and is nearly silent.

 

The quietest SLR I've ever tested is the Olympus E-1. If the E3 uses the same shutter (or is otherwise as quiet) it might be very useful for this kind of work.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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I agree with Mark. As an experiment, to see what might happen with a Luigi case, I wrapped a towel around the camera and tried it that way. You muffle the wind-on sound substantially, but not the deep initial "clunk." I don't know why the clunk has to be so heavy -- it almost sounds like a mirror flip. I would be willing to bet that if Leica seriously looked at some sound-deadening possibilities, the "clunk" could be greatly diminished at very little cost. Why should the firing of the shutter be any louder than in an M7? It strikes me as one of those things (like the magenta shift) that didn't seem so important in the rush to get the camera out, but has become more of an issue as we go along.

 

JC

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John, I think the noise is primarily carried through the camera casting rather than airborne, and sound deadening to stop the casting ringing might help, a bit like loudspeaker manufacturers glueing bitumen pads on the inside to deaden the panels. It would also be good to mount the shutter on a resilient mount instead of directly onto the casting.

 

That initial thunk is the sound of the shutter unlock - which prevents accidental release if the camera is jarred - and the opening of the shutter. An firmware change increased the time between the two because it may be the initial opening of the shutter was being impeded by the "not quite unlocked yet" condition. I think improvements would come if the Copal shutter had its own "safety catch" rather than an external mechanism to block the movement of the cocking lever which is has to be a heavier duty mechanism to carry the spring load.

 

The M7 shutter, slower and using cloth instead of metal, was indeed much quieter.

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The reason why the M8 is louder than a M7 or any other M, is quite simply that the shutter is faster. It accelerates faster and brakes faster, over a shorter distance. Still, the sound is in the ear (actually, mind) of the hearer, and as we have been told, even a M6 can be objectionable. In a situation like this, I would haul out my old Retina IIIC. Nothing beats a small Compur shutter!

 

The old man from the Age of Compur Shutters

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Thanks to all for comments - I clearly need to keep away from the subject, wrap the camera in neoprene and use a heavy lens (out comes the 75 Lux) to dampen the noise... and if push comes to shove buy a quiet point and shoot... :D

 

Really do appreciate your comments and suggestions.

 

The question does remain though - does anyone know if the feature several of us have asked for (shutter release on actuation, shutter re-cock on release) is in Leica's pipeline. Is it considered technically feasible by them, can it be implemented through firmware, when might it happen?

 

In the meantime, I'm off to get some bubble-wrap...;)

 

V Best

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