PDAF likely to replace DFD-CDAF on SL3

[sillbeers15]

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On 12/31/2022 at 3:04 AM, Simone_DF said:

Yes, unfortunately the Q2 AF is waaaaaay worse than the SL2. The Maestro II is not enough to drive it.

Based on one of the S5ll Reviews, the joint effort development of the L2 Processor first to be deployed in the S5ll is double the processing power of the original S5.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, sillbeers15 said:

Based on one of the S5ll Reviews, the joint effort development of the L2 Processor first to be deployed in the S5ll is double the processing power of the original S5.

Interesting. Makes sense given the L2 Technology Alliance announcement, but I missed the part about joint L2 Processor development which will most probably be renamed/branded "maestro III" (?) on the Leica cameras.

As we saw from Canon's leap frog from relative very little sensor innovation outside of incremental for years to what Canon accomplished in the Canon R5 once Canon finally got their hands on new and much more powerful processor technology. Clearly latest and much more powerful processor tech make all the magic happen in mirrorless cameras. 

BTW, @sillbeers15, thank you for creating this thread--not only a refreshing change from all the constant and prolific complaining that seems to have taken over some sections of this forum recently, but also fun and interesting as we all peer into the potential SL system future 

Edited January 11, 2023 by LBJ2

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb LBJ2:

Interesting. Makes sense given the L2 Technology Alliance announcement, but I missed the part about joint L2 Processor development which will most probably be renamed/branded "maestro III" (?) on the Leica cameras.

[…]

Leica will most probably call the processor L2. Maestro III is already on the market in the SL2, SL2-S, M11, S3. 

[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

Leica will most probably call the processor L2. Maestro III is already on the market in the SL2, SL2-S, M11, S3. 

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll blame it on an innocent typo 🙃 I should have written Maestro IV, or as you say perhaps "L2" 

[helged]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Leica will most probably call the processor L2. Maestro III is already on the market in the SL2, SL2-S, M11, S3. 

Actually, S3 uses Maestro II.

[sillbeers15]

3 hours ago, helged said:

Actually, S3 uses Maestro II.

Likely because S3 is SLR so the PDAF sensors are traditional & not part of the image sensor like mirrorless cameras are designed. That would likely call for less processing power unlike the S5ll having 779 PDAF sensors spread about the entire image sensor. Also true is the newer processors are more energy efficient even though it carries more processing power. Every new processor outperforms the predecessor in this direction. 
AMD just announced its new 7040 AI processor 20% faster than the current industry leader, Apple’s M2 processor in the on going CES show using TSMC’s 4nm chip. Then again the crown will rotate to another player in the near future.

[sillbeers15]

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5 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Leica will most probably call the processor L2. Maestro III is already on the market in the SL2, SL2-S, M11, S3. 

Leica calls it Maestro & Panasonic calls its processor Venus. I am pretty sure they are either similar or just a rebrand job of the same. There are just too many of such practices in the manufacturing industry today as consumers are easily fooled.

[LBJ2]

For anybody using DXO Editing apps and SL cameras and lenses:

“In February, DxO Labs plans to add support for the Pentax Kf and Sigma fp as well as the following lenses:

Pentax HD D FA Macro 100mm F2.8 ED AW

Leica APO Summicron SL 28mm F2 ASPH

Leica APO Summicron SL 50mm F2 ASPH

Leica APO Summicron SL 90mm F2 ASPH

Leica Super Vario Elmar SL 16-35mm F3.5-4.5 ASPH

The new Optics Modules are available to use within DxO Labs’s FilmPack, PhotoLab, PureRAW and Viewpoint programs, each of which are available to purchase on DxO Labs’ website.”

https://www.dpreview.com/news/2533280895/dxo-adds-nearly-1700-new-optics-modules-to-its-suite-of-editing-programs

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 1/11/2023 at 9:47 AM, Photoworks said:

to clarify wobble is only AFc. I type incorrectly.

Yes SF60 on events. I was using a large box in the middle to focus. AFs

2 cameras with similar setup

OK. Yep. The AFC wobble is a PITA. I rarely used it at receptions. I had just as much luck mashing the shutter in AFS although I found AF quick and reliable this way as long as you found a spot with a bit of contrast for the system to grab on to. I suppose since the most *advanced* AF I ever used at a wedding was the A7R3 (with a guest appearance by my A9 once) I never really thought about using tracking and AFC much. I only ever used tracking for some formal shots where the couple was walking/running for the odd specific shot with more rapid movement. And mostly in a predictable manner.

Took an A9 to a wedding once. It never left AFS. Shows what a dinosaur I am.....

Gordon

[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

Leica calls it Maestro & Panasonic calls its processor Venus. I am pretty sure they are either similar or just a rebrand job of the same. There are just too many of such practices in the manufacturing industry today as consumers are easily fooled.

Leica's Maestro processors up to Maestro III have been made by Fujitsu (plenty of online sources). Does Panasonic make their own processor or do they buy one from Fujitsu as well?* Either way, it wouldn't surprise me if Leica & Panasonic used the same processor under different names. If Maestro IV is a new Panasonic one, lets hope they get the firmware right first time (M11, looking at you)!

 

* A quick search online suggests they do make (or at least design) their own, but have in the past shared technology with Fujitsu. 

[sillbeers15]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Leica's Maestro processors up to Maestro III have been made by Fujitsu (plenty of online sources). Does Panasonic make their own processor or do they buy one from Fujitsu as well?* Either way, it wouldn't surprise me if Leica & Panasonic used the same processor under different names. If Maestro IV is a new Panasonic one, lets hope they get the firmware right first time (M11, looking at you)!

 

* A quick search online suggests they do make (or at least design) their own, but have in the past shared technology with Fujitsu. 

I do not have information about the details on IC design of the Fujitsu CPU. But the L2 IC design collaboration between Leica & Panasonic is made public and to many extent a marketing effort. I guess my opinion is such that it is not a game changer on the CPU used if it were generic or custom designed. More importantly it is the hardware processing power & speed related to heat management matters as further customisation down stream on firmware would complete the picture on the image capturing & AF performance of the camera.

[LBJ2]

Interesting information from a recent interview with Panasonic with regards to DFD and PDAF implementation in the S5II aka "coming soon to a SL3 near you" maybe 😉

Posted on https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com but the full/original interview is here: https://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/topic/special/1465206.html 

Translated:

"On Why Phase Detection AF is only coming now on Panasonic cameras:

This is because we place the highest priority on image quality. When using focal plane phase detection AF, pixel defects will inevitably occur. LUMIX gives top priority to image quality, so we have been developing from the perspective of how far AF can be enhanced while still producing the highest image quality. In such a situation, we have refined contrast AF and DFD (spatial recognition AF) without pixel defects.

So that's it. Then the S5II was finally able to adopt focal plane phase detection AF:

Nakamura: While we were doing Contrast AF + DFD, we naturally heard the demands of the market, and we were always considering what kind of AF method would be best, taking into account those voices. In addition to that, this time we decided to use image-plane phase-detection AF because we were able to finish the image processing of the new engine so that pixel defects would have as little impact as possible."

So you decided to go with focal plane phase-difference AF because the image sensor, or rather the engine, had improved performance? Can the S5II's focal plane phase detection AF be used with existing lenses? Also, are you making use of the DFD technology you have cultivated so far?

Okami: All of our and other companies' L-mount lenses operate with focal plane phase detection AF. Depending on the scene, AF operates almost exclusively with image plane phase difference AF, but in some scenes where image plane phase difference AF is difficult, AF is performed using DFD technology.

So you use it automatically depending on the scene.

Okami: Yes. However, I think that even if the image plane phase difference AF and contrast AF are switched, the user will hardly notice it. DFD technology has a different role than focal plane phase detection AF, so we will continue to use it.

 

*With regards to the new PDAF and the existing L-Mount lenses we currently use to focus with DFD:

So you decided to go with focal plane phase-difference AF because the image sensor, or rather the engine, had improved performance? Can the S5II's focal plane phase detection AF be used with existing lenses? Also, are you making use of the DFD technology you have cultivated so far?

Okami: All of our and other companies' L-mount lenses operate with focal plane phase detection AF. Depending on the scene, AF operates almost exclusively with image plane phase difference AF, but in some scenes where image plane phase difference AF is difficult, AF is performed using DFD technology.

You can translate and read the full interview here:

https://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/topic/special/1465206.html

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by LBJ2

[beewee]

3 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

"On Why Phase Detection AF is only coming now on Panasonic cameras:

This is because we place the highest priority on image quality. When using focal plane phase detection AF, pixel defects will inevitably occur. LUMIX gives top priority to image quality, so we have been developing from the perspective of how far AF can be enhanced while still producing the highest image quality. In such a situation, we have refined contrast AF and DFD (spatial recognition AF) without pixel defects.

So that's it. Then the S5II was finally able to adopt focal plane phase detection AF:

Nakamura: While we were doing Contrast AF + DFD, we naturally heard the demands of the market, and we were always considering what kind of AF method would be best, taking into account those voices. In addition to that, this time we decided to use image-plane phase-detection AF because we were able to finish the image processing of the new engine so that pixel defects would have as little impact as possible."

The reasoning is plausible if not for the fact that Panasonic did mention that they heard negative feedback about the DFD-CDAF in the GH5 and that they couldn’t implement PDAF on the GH6 because it was already too late in its development. Also, pixel defects occur regardless of whether you have PDAF or not and there are detection algorithms to handle this already in camera so I’m not sure how on-sensor PDAF would make a huge difference here. I can see how it could make it harder to support the high res multi-shot feature but even that feature already needs to be able to account for dead/hot pixels so this all sounds a bit like a strawman explanation.

Edited January 14, 2023 by beewee

[LBJ2]

43 minutes ago, beewee said:

The reasoning is plausible if not for the fact that Panasonic did mention that they heard negative feedback about the DFD-CDAF in the GH5 and that they couldn’t implement PDAF on the GH6 because it was already too late in its development. Also, pixel defects occur regardless of whether you have PDAF or not and there are detection algorithms to handle this already in camera so I’m not sure how on-sensor PDAF would make a huge difference here. I can see how it could make it harder to support the high res multi-shot feature but even that feature already needs to be able to account for dead/hot pixels so this all sounds a bit like a strawman explanation.

There is the possibility the machine translation did did not convert the full/correct information.  

[LD_50]

4 hours ago, beewee said:

The reasoning is plausible if not for the fact that Panasonic did mention that they heard negative feedback about the DFD-CDAF in the GH5 and that they couldn’t implement PDAF on the GH6 because it was already too late in its development. Also, pixel defects occur regardless of whether you have PDAF or not and there are detection algorithms to handle this already in camera so I’m not sure how on-sensor PDAF would make a huge difference here. I can see how it could make it harder to support the high res multi-shot feature but even that feature already needs to be able to account for dead/hot pixels so this all sounds a bit like a strawman explanation.

I don’t think they are referring to dead or hot pixels. I believe they are referring to the fact that some of the pixels are replaced by PDAF sensors and this can lead to artifacts with some cameras. Usually this is seen when pushing the files to extremes. 

[Simone_DF]

20 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

Translated:

"On Why Phase Detection AF is only coming now on Panasonic cameras:

This is because we place the highest priority on image quality. When using focal plane phase detection AF, pixel defects will inevitably occur. LUMIX gives top priority to image quality, so we have been developing from the perspective of how far AF can be enhanced while still producing the highest image quality. In such a situation, we have refined contrast AF and DFD (spatial recognition AF) without pixel defects.

Correct translation: "We messed up big time with DFD, the market punished us with one digit market share. In order to survive and compete with the other companies, we have to change course and implement decent AFC, but our marketing department says we have to find another way to spin the news without losing face"

[BernardC]

12 hours ago, LD_50 said:

I don’t think they are referring to dead or hot pixels. I believe they are referring to the fact that some of the pixels are replaced by PDAF sensors and this can lead to artifacts with some cameras. Usually this is seen when pushing the files to extremes. 

Exactly. They are referring to a very common complaint: a sensor claims to have "15 stops of DR," however in real life the last two stops are unusable because of banding (or banding mitigation/smoothing).

[LBJ2]

Panasonic's director of imaging talks S5 II, Micro Four Thirds and the need for small cameras–Richard Butler, DPR

"Clarity on L² collaboration

-We also asked Mr Yamane about the L² collaboration with Leica. The initial announcementwas met with some confusion since it appeared to overlap with the existing, and similarly named, L-mount Alliance, which also includes Sigma.

Yamane said the L-mount Alliance involves the three companies sharing information to 'provide stable product compatibility among Alliance partners,' primarily in order to build lenses that meet the specification, standard and compatibility targets of the alliance.

He went on to clarify that the L² Technology is a closer partnership, covering a wider range of topics, that will see the Lumix and Leica brands share resources and technology throughout the development process. 'These two [projects] are completely different and we are promoting them on different axes,' he said.

Yamane points to the new image processor in the S5 II as one of the first examples of this partnership, saying, 'The combined expertise of the two companies in image processing enables this technology to achieve high image quality performance and high-speed arithmetic processing.'

As Yamane explained it, Panasonic and Leica have different expertise. 'By bringing them together, pulling [them] into one box and mixing them up, we hope to see the benefits. For example, Leica has strengths in the expressive part [colour, image processing], where Panasonic has strengths in developing devices and in manufacturing.'

One of the things that may have made the initial announcements seem a little vague and potentially confusing is that the scope and extent of the collaboration is still evolving. 'It's not fixed,' said Yamane, 'We'll continue to update the areas where we're going to work together.'

Why PDAF now?

-As we discussed technology, we couldn't resist asking why the company has changed its tune about phase detection AF, given that the company had previously expressed concerns about PDAF negatively affecting image quality.

'Internally there's a particular image quality standard we have to achieve. We develop TVs, camcorders, these are core areas for us. In the past the adoption of phase detection didn't reach that standard,' he said. 'Because of the upgraded image processing, we could be confident that the S5 II now reaches that level.'

We asked for more detail, but found the intricacies of phase detection a little more than the language barrier would allow. Our discussion did suggest that the S5 II isn't using a sensor with multiple photodiodes at each 'pixel' position (i.e., quad-pixel AF), though. 'There are missing pixels that you have to make up for,' he told us, suggesting the sensor is using the more traditional, partially masked phase detect pixels."

Bonus...on the future of Micro Four Thirds

'I think the need for small, lightweight cameras that can be carried around all the time like smartphones will increase, especially among the younger generation.'

https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/3463104493/panasonic-s-director-of-imaging-talks-s5-ii-micro-four-thirds-and-the-need-for-small-cameras

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount