Did the UR Leica have a self capping shutter?

[wlaidlaw]

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If the UR did not have a self capping shutter, then it would have needed a lens plug like the Null Leicas did. Two questions spring to mind: 1) If it had a self capping shutter, why on earth did Leica revert to a non-self-capping shutter on the Null models, as it is incredibly inconvenient. 2) If the UR did not have a self capping shutter and required a lens plug, why do the UR replicas come without a lens plug or even the fitting for the retaining string, plus I think the lens rim is too narrow to retain a plug (it would just drop out). Leica obviously realised what an inconvenience the lens plug was as all Model 1's have self capping shutters, albeit I am not too sure about the Compur models.

If my Null replica had a self capping shutter, I would use it all the time, as I think it is such a lovely little camera, when fitted with a SBOOI bright line viewfinder. I can zone focus quite well enough for most purposes, after all I managed for years with my Rollei 35S and Minox 35GT and rarely had a mis-focused shot. I tend to use my Great Uncle's Model III or my IIIa with a MOOLY instead. 

Wilson

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[FrozenInTime]

Did the Ur not have a swing down brass cap  that serves the same purpose as the 0-series leather plug ?

[FrozenInTime]

0-series replica with a SBOOI is marvelous ; at one time thought the 2nd version would be better and I bought a used one. Replacing the cap after each shot and winding on became second nature, so very few wiped frames bit at the expense of the occasional accidental shutter press and need to drop a frame to change the shutter width which requires a partial wind.

After a couple of years I sold the v2 and kept using the 1st version with the superior SBOOI finder. I solved the case fit issue by cutting off the font half off the case to make a half case.

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, FrozenInTime said:

Did the Ur not have a swing down brass cap  that serves the same purpose as the 0-series leather plug ?

My swing down cap is totally not light tight but then my UR must have been built by an apprentice, who is now earning his living as a burger flipper. The innards were just poured in and the bottom cover attached, with no effort to connect them up or get the shutter working, so a better made swinging cover might well act as a plug. 

I had an old and very tatty 1C case, where the front cover was about to part company with the back, so I just helped it a bit. I can use it on my Null, my 1C Standard or my Model 2, as the latter two also don't have strap lugs. My Model 3, even though it is a year older than my 1935 Model 2, does have strap lugs. 

Wilson

Edited December 20, 2022 by wlaidlaw

[derleicaman]

Short answer on the Ur, no it did not have a self capping shutter. As you noted, the Null Series did not either, hence the leather lens plug/cap.

My Ur replica is also poorly assembled, and does not work properly. I’ll have to ask Stefan Daniel about the story that they were the work of apprentices.

Edited December 20, 2022 by derleicaman

[jerzy]

as per my informatrion the only Ur replica with working shutter is from Oberlaender, of course apart from copies modified by some LF members. Shutter is non-capping, window width is full frame, speed is approx 1/20, may be adjusted up to approx 1/40th by spanning the spring. Such shutter is useless for film speeds nowadays, therefore working replicas made currently by this LF members have much narrower slit.

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When self capping shutter was invented? I do not think it was already in 1913. Early this year I had Ermanox with deffective curtains on my table. This model was introduced in 1925 I believe. It has self capping shutter (running vertically, but this is not relevant) however self capping is solved differently than in Leica. As you may see on the middle photo the opening curtain (lower one) when spanning is being pulled up by the closing curtain, idea known as well from Contax (maybe others as well). Mechanical construction of shutter mechanism reminds more on how Compur solved closing the leaves of the shutter and not the construction of Leica. So I believe that self-capping Leica shutter was really very innovative, much simplier than in Ermanox 

 

 

[willeica]

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9 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

If the UR did not have a self capping shutter, then it would have needed a lens plug like the Null Leicas did. Two questions spring to mind: 1) If it had a self capping shutter, why on earth did Leica revert to a non-self-capping shutter on the Null models, as it is incredibly inconvenient. 2) If the UR did not have a self capping shutter and required a lens plug, why do the UR replicas come without a lens plug or even the fitting for the retaining string, plus I think the lens rim is too narrow to retain a plug (it would just drop out). Leica obviously realised what an inconvenience the lens plug was as all Model 1's have self capping shutters, albeit I am not too sure about the Compur models.

If my Null replica had a self capping shutter, I would use it all the time, as I think it is such a lovely little camera, when fitted with a SBOOI bright line viewfinder. I can zone focus quite well enough for most purposes, after all I managed for years with my Rollei 35S and Minox 35GT and rarely had a mis-focused shot. I tend to use my Great Uncle's Model III or my IIIa with a MOOLY instead. 

Wilson

The self capping shutter appeared in some of the later 0 Series cameras, but were not in the first batch. I cannot understand why anyone would use the Ur or 0 Series replicas for actual photography when a well serviced I Model A will do the same thing much better.

William

[derleicaman]

6 hours ago, willeica said:

The self capping shutter appeared in some of the later 0 Series cameras, but were not in the first batch. I cannot understand why anyone would use the Ur or 0 Series replicas for actual photography when a well serviced I Model A will do the same thing much better.

William

William, how else to get the total Ur experience!

[willeica]

20 minutes ago, derleicaman said:

William, how else to get the total Ur experience!

I know what you mean, Bill, but, as a collector, I prefer to collect originals rather than replicas and then to use them. I have other cameras that are nearly as complex to use as an Ur or a '0', but the last time I checked only one Ur still survives and as for the 0 series the numbers are few and the entry price is high, particularly after last June. We could start speculation on what the Ur would fetch in the unlikely event that it ever went for auction. I used to say up to last June that it might fetch €10 million, but that figure must now be revised upwards, possibly by adding another digit 😇

William 

[jpattison]

19 hours ago, willeica said:

 I used to say up to last June that it might fetch €10 million, but that figure must now be revised upwards, possibly by adding another digit 😇

William 

That's me out !

John

[wlaidlaw]

.....but if the missing UR, (last seen in Switzerland in 1945??), ever turns up, surely the price will halve 😀

I can just picture the scene at a small private bank in Zug, when they are clearing out private safe deposit boxes where the rental has not been paid for a number of years: "what on earth, some tatty old camera, that presumably had sentimental value to the owner? Chuck it in the trash." Ouch!

Wilson

Edited December 21, 2022 by wlaidlaw

[Ambro5I]

I would be very interested in any facts regarding the actual building the UR Replicas.  

[Ambro5I]

During my work with the UR Replicas...  I noticed something very interesting.   The camera had the Leitz 42 mm Summar installed by Mr. Kim, and it fit in perfectly, and the lens barrel front plate and swivel cap work as intended.  The 50mm Leitz Milar does thread in, but the barrel does not extend far enough for infinity focus.   When I got an original Zeiss f 3.5 5cm Kino Tessar in, imagine my surprise when I found it threaded right in!  And Surprise, when I pushed the inner barrel into the outer....the Focus was Perfect, and in register with the helical focus scale.  We do know Barnack tried the CZJ 5 cm. Lens first, but abandoned it because it vignettes the corners.  We also know he modified the film size by shortening one side from 38mm to 36mm.  Negatives shot in my UR with the CZJ lens show One side with vidnetted corners.   Removing the lens  the outer barrel extends 14mm out from that point.   Though I haven’t got one to try, I aim presuming the Leitz 64mm will be then in focal registry.  ••••. So, I will advance the theory that the design of Barnacks Liliput Camera intended for it to have interchangeable lenses!

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Edited December 21, 2022 by Ambro5I

[Ambro5I]

The 64mm.  Would it fit?  500$ ebay to find out ...

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[Ambro5I]

If anyone Has a 64mm, I would be eager for a brief “lend” to check this out.BtW, here’s a recent UR image, using the CZJ lens   

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Edited December 22, 2022 by Ambro5I