Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[Manunagra5]

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Hi everyone,

my leica MP is back from Leica Wetzlar due to scratches on film. The seller in Paris told me this morning that the problem was the pressure plate, ( i told it to him one month ago doing the demonstration with a film in the store). I don't know if the MP is completely repaired now but it arrived with scratches on the black paint. The seller asked me if i had photographs to demonstrate that these scratches didn't exist before i send the mp to repair. Of course not! Why would i take pictures of my camera? Aren't Leica technicians supposed to be professionnal? Seriously, i'm very disappointed with what this brand has become for... LEICA = BIG JOKE

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[LuckySquirrel]

11 hours ago, williamj said:

Maybe they're only counting a scratch in the emulsion as a scratch. I mean they said they tested it and it didn't scratch. As I've posted elsewhere both my IIIf from 1951 and my M3 from 1956 leave fine hairline scratches on the back of the film that you can only see if you hold it exactly in the right place but it has no effect on the emulsion or the pictures. Maybe shoot some pictures and develop the film? See if you can see scratches in the developed images?

That's interesting and good to know, thank you! I was trying to decide before using the camera fully and getting images developed so that I still have the option to return the camera.

8 hours ago, Huss said:

That's pretty much identical to what mine is doing.  And it does show up if you shoot B&W film.  With colour print film, the digital ICE removes scratches and may be able to mask this.  But that is not acceptable, given that this camera costs $5600, and you can buy a new Kodak or Ilford plastic camera for $30 that does not scratch film.

Your shop that tested it and said it was fine obviously did not examine the film sufficiently.  I'm also wondering if some happy customers do not realize that their cameras are scratching film because they are shooting C41 and the digital ICE is covering up the issue.

I definitely plan to shoot both B&W as well as color (B&W so that I can develop at home). I think unfortunately if this is similar to what you were seeing I will likely just return it. I have an email out to DAG to see what they say and to get a potential repair cost just to have options.

6 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

You mark just one scratch - or is this just the visible part of the scratch extending the full length of the film? (Both films). 
If it is at just one location on each film, whereabouts is it in relation to the leader?
Can you measure up the vertical position of the scratch and see where it occurs on the pressure plate (if that is the cause)? Any sign of a blemish, detectable with a finger nail?

Apologies, I should have been more clear. The 2-3 scratches that you see in the image extend the full length of both films. I tried doing 5-10 frames at first, saw where the scratches stopped and marked the length, then put the roll back in and used the whole length to see if the scratches would extend. They continued in the exact same path. I have a video showing the scratches going for a certain length (what I had pulled out of the canister) but haven't gotten around to hosting it anywhere to link here. 

I tried looking closely at the "bridges" and pressure plate and could not see anything that would be causing the issue. I ran my finger (and nail very gently) over the pressure plate (nail around the edges and screw locations) and didn't feel anything (following which I used a lens wipe and air blower to clean it). I'm really at a loss of what is causing the issue and think it would take someone more familiar with the camera to correctly identify.

Edited February 1, 2023 by LuckySquirrel

[28framelines]

8 hours ago, Huss said:

Ok...  jonnyc has reported his new camera scratches, and luckysquirrel has reported that his REPLACEMENT camera also scratches.

This is looking really not very good.

14 ok, 9 not.

But don’t worry Huss, I got an email response back after I made that email about the different links where people are experiencing this issue, and rest assured, the film scratching issue is resolved because some support person said so! 😂 

With 39% (9/(9+14) of new M6’s being scratchers, and 100% of repair/replacement M6’s being scratchers, sure sounds like they resolved the problem!

The email:

Dear 28framelines,

Thank you very much for your mail. The problem of the film scratching has been resolved. No new cameras have this issue. If you have an M6 which scratches film, please let us know and we will fix it. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Tim

[LuckySquirrel]

At this point I think I'm heavily leaning towards returning it and just buying used for now. If/when Leica fixes these issues for their new film cameras I would definitely like to purchase a MP in the future.

Now I'm trying to decide which used model to go with. Originally I wanted a MP since it has the brass top/bottom plates & gearing, as well as a light meter. If I'm not looking at the new MP or 2022 M6 (due to the scratching issues), I think I'd likely look at a M4 or M6 (non TTL for the ability to keep it repaired going forward).

The M4 has the brass top/bottom plates and better gearing, but no light meter (I could always look at an external one but not sure how friendly these are to use vs. one directly in the viewfinder in practice). The M6 on the other hand has the light meter but zinc top/bottom plates and steel gearing. I think I'm leaning towards the M6 right now but would welcome any thoughts & opinions.

There are some NOS M6s that I've seen pop up on eBay (that say they have a CLA) from Japan that are pretty tempting at this point. I've looked at this forum classifieds, B&H, Adorama, Keh, Used Photo Pro, Camera West, Popflash, MPB, Tamarkin, Leica Miami, & Classic Connection multiple times over the past few weeks but I haven't found anything that are as clean as a NOS item except on eBay. Would it be a bad idea to go this route?

[Matlock]

53 minutes ago, LuckySquirrel said:

 

Now I'm trying to decide which used model to go with. Originally I wanted a MP since it has the brass top/bottom plates & gearing, as well as a light meter. If I'm not looking at the new MP or 2022 M6 (due to the scratching issues), I think I'd likely look at a M4 or M6 (non TTL for the ability to keep it repaired going forward).

The M4 has the brass top/bottom plates and better gearing, but no light meter (I could always look at an external one but not sure how friendly these are to use vs. one directly in the viewfinder in practice). The M6 on the other hand has the light meter but zinc top/bottom plates and steel gearing. I think I'm leaning towards the M6 right now but would welcome any thoughts & opinions.

A lot has been made of the problems with the zinc top plates but this has been blown up out of all proportion this forum. The problem was comparatively rare and confined to a couple of batches. Providing you can examine the camera and ensure that it is in good shape you will be fine. If it hasn't bubbled so far, it won't in the future.

[Huss]

14 minutes ago, Matlock said:

A lot has been made of the problems with the zinc top plates but this has been blown up out of all proportion this forum. The problem was comparatively rare and confined to a couple of batches. Providing you can examine the camera and ensure that it is in good shape you will be fine. If it hasn't bubbled so far, it won't in the future.

Exactly.  If it hasn't bubble by now, it will not.  All the original M6s I've looked at in person had no signs of this affliction.

[Fotoklaus]

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Perhaps they can Tell us WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THE SCRATCHES, Finally!

 

[LuckySquirrel]

49 minutes ago, Matlock said:

A lot has been made of the problems with the zinc top plates but this has been blown up out of all proportion this forum. The problem was comparatively rare and confined to a couple of batches. Providing you can examine the camera and ensure that it is in good shape you will be fine. If it hasn't bubbled so far, it won't in the future.

Not sure if I'm allowed to link or not, but here is one of the cameras I am looking at (eBay link).

Wanted to share as this may be helpful to some here:

• When I had the issue with the first camera, I reached out to Youxin Ye and he said when he has seen this previously, a pressure plate replacement (to the older style M6 plate with no screws) fixed the problem.
• For this second camera, I reached out to Don at DAG and he recommended that I try polishing the pressure plate with a leather chamois, else replacing the pressure plate would be required.

It's interesting that both Youxin Ye and Don mention the pressure plate as the culprit (I know I've seen speculation as to whether it could be other parts of the camera causing the scratching). I think Don's recommendation is also neat, as a leather chamois is soft enough not to scratch automotive paint (provided it's clean and the car was just washed properly), but is also more robust than microfiber and may be able to knock down/off anything that isn't visible to the eye but still damaging to film passing over it.

[madNbad]

2 hours ago, LuckySquirrel said:

At this point I think I'm heavily leaning towards returning it and just buying used for now. If/when Leica fixes these issues for their new film cameras I would definitely like to purchase a MP in the future.

Now I'm trying to decide which used model to go with. Originally I wanted a MP since it has the brass top/bottom plates & gearing, as well as a light meter. If I'm not looking at the new MP or 2022 M6 (due to the scratching issues), I think I'd likely look at a M4 or M6 (non TTL for the ability to keep it repaired going forward).

The M4 has the brass top/bottom plates and better gearing, but no light meter (I could always look at an external one but not sure how friendly these are to use vs. one directly in the viewfinder in practice). The M6 on the other hand has the light meter but zinc top/bottom plates and steel gearing. I think I'm leaning towards the M6 right now but would welcome any thoughts & opinions.

There are some NOS M6s that I've seen pop up on eBay (that say they have a CLA) from Japan that are pretty tempting at this point. I've looked at this forum classifieds, B&H, Adorama, Keh, Used Photo Pro, Camera West, Popflash, MPB, Tamarkin, Leica Miami, & Classic Connection multiple times over the past few weeks but I haven't found anything that are as clean as a NOS item except on eBay. Would it be a bad idea to go this route?

I owned a M6 TTL that developed zinc oxidation. Mostly, it was patches of light bubbles at various spots across the top plate. Annoying but didn't interfere with the operation of the camera. The main reason I sold it was to trade it toward the purchace of a M6 TTL Millennium. It was at the peak of the great analog sell off and too good a deal to pass up. If I owned that TTL today, I would have kept it because it was a great user friendly camera. The M6 TTL, MP and the new M6 all have the center conformation dot whereas the original M6 has the two arrows that should be lit equally for proper exposure. If you want a M6, buy one. Only more M3's were made so there are plenty of them available. Leica will eventually correct the problems with the new M6 but if you don't want to wait, buy pre owned. 

[28framelines]

1 hour ago, Fotoklaus said:

Perhaps they can Tell us WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THE SCRATCHES, Finally!

 

I just asked

[Huss]

1 hour ago, 28framelines said:

I just asked

I'm curious too as that message apparently didn't get to the tech who 'resolved the issue' on my camera last week.

[Steve Ricoh]

I own an M6 classic in 1st class condition. but detest the zinc top plate. Ok there’s no bubbles, but zinc oxidises so easily if the finish is compromised. I’m thinking of getting shut.

[williamj]

9 hours ago, LuckySquirrel said:

At this point I think I'm heavily leaning towards returning it and just buying used for now. If/when Leica fixes these issues for their new film cameras I would definitely like to purchase a MP in the future.

Now I'm trying to decide which used model to go with. Originally I wanted a MP since it has the brass top/bottom plates & gearing, as well as a light meter. If I'm not looking at the new MP or 2022 M6 (due to the scratching issues), I think I'd likely look at a M4 or M6 (non TTL for the ability to keep it repaired going forward).

The M4 has the brass top/bottom plates and better gearing, but no light meter (I could always look at an external one but not sure how friendly these are to use vs. one directly in the viewfinder in practice). The M6 on the other hand has the light meter but zinc top/bottom plates and steel gearing. I think I'm leaning towards the M6 right now but would welcome any thoughts & opinions.

There are some NOS M6s that I've seen pop up on eBay (that say they have a CLA) from Japan that are pretty tempting at this point. I've looked at this forum classifieds, B&H, Adorama, Keh, Used Photo Pro, Camera West, Popflash, MPB, Tamarkin, Leica Miami, & Classic Connection multiple times over the past few weeks but I haven't found anything that are as clean as a NOS item except on eBay. Would it be a bad idea to go this route?

To me your dilemma is about warranties. If you persist with Leica, they have given a warranty that the camera will be OK, and so if you push them they will ultimately give you a camera that works to your satisfaction within the design parameters of an M camera. This is the power of  the new purchase. This is your power and disappointment that you had to push them does not take away that power.

If you go to a brick and mortar store that gives a warranty you have similar but not quite the same protection but now the age of the item is a consideration.

A new old stock with a CLA might work perfectly but if it doesn't what protection do you have? I have never tried that so I can't speak to it. How easy would it be to get your money back? Are there horror stories?

As for which camera, all M cameras give you essentially the same experience with differences in detail that adherents of a particular model will go to the mattresses about. No hate :).

[archive_all]

10 hours ago, LuckySquirrel said:

At this point I think I'm heavily leaning towards returning it and just buying used for now. If/when Leica fixes these issues for their new film cameras I would definitely like to purchase a MP in the future.

Now I'm trying to decide which used model to go with. Originally I wanted a MP since it has the brass top/bottom plates & gearing, as well as a light meter. If I'm not looking at the new MP or 2022 M6 (due to the scratching issues), I think I'd likely look at a M4 or M6 (non TTL for the ability to keep it repaired going forward).

The M4 has the brass top/bottom plates and better gearing, but no light meter (I could always look at an external one but not sure how friendly these are to use vs. one directly in the viewfinder in practice). The M6 on the other hand has the light meter but zinc top/bottom plates and steel gearing. I think I'm leaning towards the M6 right now but would welcome any thoughts & opinions.

There are some NOS M6s that I've seen pop up on eBay (that say they have a CLA) from Japan that are pretty tempting at this point. I've looked at this forum classifieds, B&H, Adorama, Keh, Used Photo Pro, Camera West, Popflash, MPB, Tamarkin, Leica Miami, & Classic Connection multiple times over the past few weeks but I haven't found anything that are as clean as a NOS item except on eBay. Would it be a bad idea to go this route?

I arrived at the same spot. Following these stories while initially interested in a new MP made me start patiently looking for a used camera, an older proven MP or M6. I have an M2 and may just go repaint with that and a user M6 or something. Maybe I'll sell those off eventually for a new MP once things seem to be resolved. 

[archive_all]

13 minutes ago, williamj said:

A new old stock with a CLA might work perfectly but if it doesn't what protection do you have? I have never tried that so I can't speak to it. How easy would it be to get your money back? Are there horror stories?

Pay Pal does offer some protection from what I understand. I have no experience with a purchase where I needed to have them step in but it's part of the Ebay buyer protection apparently. Plus, I think there are some fairly reputable (correct me if I'm wrong) sellers like MAP who CLA a lot of their vintage cameras for sale.

[mshchem]

6 hours ago, Huss said:

I'm curious too as that message apparently didn't get to the tech who 'resolved the issue' on my camera last week.

Have you dispatched your camera with the two day express? It's stunning to me that of the YouTubers that got these cameras on or near day one no one reported scratches or anything. I wonder if they even put film in the camera? And as has been noted, if scanning is how you view your films, people might not see anything due to the robot software. 

[gunther35]

I have recently noticed horizontal scratches on my Tmax and Ektar negatives using my 1986 Wetzlar M6 camera. The scratches go across the whole frame and are in the same location.

I only notice the scratches after reviewing the scan using my Nikon Coolscan 5000 (dpi 4000) but I can't see them directly when looking at my negatives on a lightbox using an 8x loupe.

I would like to know if the scratches are on the emulsion side or the shiny side to see if they are coming from the pressure plate.

Does anyone use a 22x loupe to inspect negatives or have any other suggestions how to view which side of the negative the scratches are on?

 

 

 

[stray cat]

Hmmm... sounds like "Leica scratch" is the new "Leica glow"!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Huss]

45 minutes ago, mshchem said:

Have you dispatched your camera with the two day express? It's stunning to me that of the YouTubers that got these cameras on or near day one no one reported scratches or anything. I wonder if they even put film in the camera? And as has been noted, if scanning is how you view your films, people might not see anything due to the robot software. 

Yeah, I saw that Leica NJ received it today.  Now let's see how quickly they will turn it around.  Hopefully fixed this time.

If people are using c41 film and getting it scanned with that ICE scratch/dust removal software, they may be blissfully unaware of any issues.  I'm not sure how effective it is though.

[williamj]

1 hour ago, gunther35 said:

I have recently noticed horizontal scratches on my Tmax and Ektar negatives using my 1986 Wetzlar M6 camera. The scratches go across the whole frame and are in the same location.

I only notice the scratches after reviewing the scan using my Nikon Coolscan 5000 (dpi 4000) but I can't see them directly when looking at my negatives on a lightbox using an 8x loupe.

I would like to know if the scratches are on the emulsion side or the shiny side to see if they are coming from the pressure plate.

Does anyone use a 22x loupe to inspect negatives or have any other suggestions how to view which side of the negative the scratches are on?

 

 

 

You don’t need a 22x loupe to see the scratches, the light just needs to come in from a side angle. If you’re holding the negative up to a light and moving it around you’ll be able to tell quite clearly if it is in the shiny side vs the emulsion side. 
 

I once received scans back that had a “scratch” in the same place along the entire roll but it wasn’t on the negative it was an artefact due to the scanner doing a half scan on each negative which was one pixel out when they stitched it together. The scanners told me they usually check so that it doesn’t often get seen by the public. I’m not at home or I’d post a picture. 
 

I’ve posted in two places in this forum pictures of micro scratches from my 1950s Leicas that don’t affect image quality so I’ll restrain myself   I believe that the engineering tolerances on the film gate are tight and so some cameras produce bigger scratches than others. Scratches that affect image quality are obviously unacceptable.