35:1.4 v1 and 2 Leica Product Codes

[grahamc]

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Hello 

I'm hoping to get some help on identifying the product codes for the various pre-ASPH 35mm Summilux versions (v1 steel rim, transitional v2 with infinity lock, v2 no infinity lock)    

I gather the Wiki on the forum states 35:1.4 v1 'steel rim' had product code 11870.  However, to my knowledge so do the v2 Canada and Germany ones.  I've also seen product code '11870 Z' mentioned of in relation to steel rims, transitional versions and also (rarely) non-infinity lock v2s . 

Can anyone help with a clear picture of which product codes relate to which versions of this lens and particularly when '11870 Z' was used ?   

Thanks very much 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by grahamc

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[UliWer]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb grahamc:

I've also seen product code '11870 Z' mentioned of in relation to steel rims, transitional versions and also (rarely) non-infinity lock v2s . 

You may have a look at the page from the "Leitz Gesamtkatalog" from September 1961:

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During this time Leitz added a capital letter and the end of the numbers for all their items. You still find the letters e.g. on hoods or other accessory items or boxes from this time. This combination of a five digit number with a capital letter was used only during the first years after the numbering system was introduced to replace the traditional five letter words. I do not know the reasons for adding a letter behind the number, perhaps they thought that five digits weren't sufficient for all their items, or people kept mixing up numbers so a letter might be helpful to tell apart similar numbers.

Anyway these letters were dropped some years later: I find them in up to 1963, but in 1968 the catalogue doesn't know the letters behind the numbers anymore, not sure about the years in between. 

So the "Z" behind the 11870 for the Summilux does certainly not stand for a certain variant of this lens, but was just a custom used by the numbering system of Leitz in the early sixties.

P.S.: there is another interesting finding on this page of the catalogue:  The user - probably a dealer - added handwritten numbers and prices for the hood and a lens cap. As the 12522 H is the number for the well known OLLUX hood, I have never seen the "14078 Z" for a lenscap before and cannot find it in reference books. Anybody has seen or knows something about this lenscap? 

[UliWer]

The catalogue from 1961 proofs that the dealer was not just fantasizing when he added the lenscap:

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According to the catalogue the 14078Z was plastic - other then all the other caps which were in chrome - and it was usually enclosed when the lens was delivered (as only the 50 Summilux has an asterix to note that the cap was not included). 

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, UliWer said:

You may have a look at the page from the "Leitz Gesamtkatalog" from September 1961:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

During this time Leitz added a capital letter and the end of the numbers for all their items. You still find the letters e.g. on hoods or other accessory items or boxes from this time. This combination of a five digit number with a capital letter was used only during the first years after the numbering system was introduced to replace the traditional five letter words. I do not know the reasons for adding a letter behind the number, perhaps they thought that five digits weren't sufficient for all their items, or people kept mixing up numbers so a letter might be helpful to tell apart similar numbers.

Anyway these letters were dropped some years later: I find them in up to 1963, but in 1968 the catalogue doesn't know the letters behind the numbers anymore, not sure about the years in between. 

So the "Z" behind the 11870 for the Summilux does certainly not stand for a certain variant of this lens, but was just a custom used by the numbering system of Leitz in the early sixties.

P.S.: there is another interesting finding on this page of the catalogue:  The user - probably a dealer - added handwritten numbers and prices for the hood and a lens cap. As the 12522 H is the number for the well known OLLUX hood, I have never seen the "14078 Z" for a lenscap before and cannot find it in reference books. Anybody has seen or knows something about this lenscap? 

This is really helpful, thanks .

The front cap for my 1962 v1 Summilux is plastic and looks the same as others I can find online referred to as 14078 (without 'Z').  In mine there is no number on in the inside of the cap to verify, though. 

This one (online) is stated to be 14078 and looks identical to mine:

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by grahamc

[UliWer]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb grahamc:

The front cap for my 1962 v1 Summilux is plastic and looks the same as others I can find online referred to as 14078 (without 'Z').

Do you know whether it fits other versions of the Summilux?

As far as I can see the new edition of the lens does not include a cap, or does it?

 

[grahamc]

10 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Do you know whether it fits other versions of the Summilux?

As far as I can see the new edition of the lens does not include a cap, or does it?

 

I don't think it will fit.   The 35:1.4 v1 is E41 and the 35:1.4 v2 is smaller - Any E39 cap will fit nicely on the v2.  My v2 came with a cheap looking Leica branded plastic cap, but I see others advertised with a black metallic E39 style cap.   So I'm unsure which was factory delivered. 

I'm yet to see the reissue, but it is E46 so neither of the previous caps will fit. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by grahamc

[luigi bertolotti]

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On 12/3/2022 at 10:11 AM, grahamc said:

Hello 

I'm hoping to get some help on identifying the product codes for the various pre-ASPH 35mm Summilux versions (v1 steel rim, transitional v2 with infinity lock, v2 no infinity lock)    

I gather the Wiki on the forum states 35:1.4 v1 'steel rim' had product code 11870.  However, to my knowledge so do the v2 Canada and Germany ones.  I've also seen product code '11870 Z' mentioned of in relation to steel rims, transitional versions and also (rarely) non-infinity lock v2s . 

Can anyone help with a clear picture of which product codes relate to which versions of this lens and particularly when '11870 Z' was used ?   

Thanks very much 

 

The story of Summilux 35 codes is a bit complicated for the fact that they were firstly available in chrome, then in black as alternative, then in black only... afaik, the story is like this

11870 (ungoggled) 11871 (goggled)  1960-61  chrome,  

11869 (ungoggled) 11872 (goggled)  1961 (?) black (including the rare black with steel rim) - sold as alternative to chrome

11870 (ungoggled) 11871 (goggled) - unified black only (from 1964 ?) 

(much later, there was also the 11860 titan finish - ungoggled only of course)

The letter after the 5 digits, as said by UliWer, has not specific product-related meaning : as an oldtime "IT man" I have a theory about... "control codes" for error detection-management in oldstyle Telex-based order processing (*)... Germany had wide networks for them;  probably Leitz dropped the letter when they changed to more modern interactive terminal-based applications for Order Processing

(*) You never have two identical 5 digits codes with different letter and, apparently (from a not extensive analisys of course... 😉) no 5 digits codes with just 1 different digit and the same letter _ this sounds a lot as an error detection methodology (both for human typing error and data transmission error), easy to implement also on old trivial Data Processing gear.

Edited December 5, 2022 by luigi bertolotti

[wizard]

vor 37 Minuten schrieb luigi bertolotti:

(much later, there was also the 11860 titan finish - ungoggled only of course)

And I believe much later there was a chrome version, too. Or do I mix that up with the Summicron 35 v4, which was available in both black anodized and chrome for a number of years?

[luigi bertolotti]

1 hour ago, wizard said:

And I believe much later there was a chrome version, too. Or do I mix that up with the Summicron 35 v4, which was available in both black anodized and chrome for a number of years?

Hum, afaik no... the venerable Lux 35 wasn't anymore offered in chrome from the '60s... The Summicron yes (chrome V4 has a nice look... 🙂) , and the silver finishing on Lux 35 made its comeback with the asph

 

[grahamc]

4 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

The story of Summilux 35 codes is a bit complicated for the fact that they were firstly available in chrome, then in black as alternative, then in black only... afaik, the story is like this

11870 (ungoggled) 11871 (goggled)  1960-61  chrome,  

11869 (ungoggled) 11872 (goggled)  1961 (?) black (including the rare black with steel rim) - sold as alternative to chrome

11870 (ungoggled) 11871 (goggled) - unified black only (from 1964 ?) 

(much later, there was also the 11860 titan finish - ungoggled only of course)

The letter after the 5 digits, as said by UliWer, has not specific product-related meaning : as an oldtime "IT man" I have a theory about... "control codes" for error detection-management in oldstyle Telex-based order processing (*)... Germany had wide networks for them;  probably Leitz dropped the letter when they changed to more modern interactive terminal-based applications for Order Processing

(*) You never have two identical 5 digits codes with different letter and, apparently (from a not extensive analisys of course... 😉) no 5 digits codes with just 1 different digit and the same letter _ this sounds a lot as an error detection methodology (both for human typing error and data transmission error), easy to implement also on old trivial Data Processing gear.

Thanks Luigi 👍😁