Leica IIIa winding issue.

[wrkbks]

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Hey guys! New to the group and new to Leica ownership. Just got a Leica IIIa as a gift, and I'm figuring out how it works. Anxious to start taking photos with it.

 

The issue I'm running into is the film doesn't want to seem to advance. I've cut the film properly, and it starts on the spool, but once I get about a full revolution on the takein spool, it seems the film keeps it from winding. For a while, I kept chalking it up to the film getting caught. Looking inside, it seems there was some slack and the film wasn't hooking onto the gears, so I removed the slack by gently re-winding the film a bit while advancing it.

 

But that still wasn't doing it. So while inspecting the other issue of the film counter wheel not spinning, I took off the winder knob and removed the winder shaft. It looks complete, but I noticed that the shaft that the film spool slides over holds the film spool tight, but the way the winder shaft is, it rotates freely around the shaft. I don't see how winding the film advance keeps the film tight on the spool. It doesn't seem to lock and is free to rotate as it pleases. Which is why once I get one revolution of film around it, the film basically just holds the spool in place and when the gear advances the film enough, it creates the slack and then the film comes off the gears.

 

Hope this makes sense to someone. What am I doing wrong? What's wrong with the camera? Is there something missing? Was trying to find a replacement winding shaft to see if mine looks the same. But I can't seem to see one from the IIIa.

[jc_braconi]

Have you the reverse lever in good position ?

[wrkbks]

Yes. The reverse lever is in the correct position. 

[wrkbks]

I feel like there should be some type of clamp down on the film to keep the film on the teeth. But maybe the Winder Shaft, while freely spins, needs to be lubricated to spin more freely? Maybe theirs enough resistance that keeps the film from advancing and winding itself? 

[LocalHero1953]

If your film is held clamped firmly on the spool and not just coming off (I had a spool once that held the film too loosely), then, after you have inserted the film and without the base plate on, wind it on just enough to see that the film is starting to be pulled by the spool. Then rewind some film carefully back into the canister, enough to tension the film. You should be able to squint into the base to see the film holes drop onto the sprockets. Once that has happened you should be good to go: add the baseplate and wind on a couple of exposures, and you should see the rewind knob turning as the film is pulled out.

As a relative newbie to Barnacks myself, I found the two tricks of tensioning the film and making sure the film sprocket holes had dropped over the sprockets were important. As was making sure the take-up spool was pushed fully into the camera before starting to wind.

Edited November 7, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[wrkbks]

3 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

If your film is held clamped firmly on the spool and not just coming off (I had a spool once that held the film too loosely), then, after you have inserted the film and without the base plate on, wind it on just enough to see that the film is starting to be pulled by the spool. Then rewind some film carefully back into the canister, enough to tension the film. You should be able to squint into the base to see the film holes drop onto the sprockets. Once that has happened you should be good to go: add the baseplate and wind on a couple of exposures, and you should see the rewind knob turning as the film is pulled out.

As a relative newbie to Barnacks myself, I found the two tricks of tensioning the film and making sure the film sprocket holes had dropped over the sprockets were important. As was making sure the take-up spool was pushed fully into the camera before starting to wind.

Thanks for the info. My first attempts needed this information. But now I've done that and assumed I was all set, I went out to shoot, but noticed the rewind knob wasn't rotating backwards. The film had stopped advancing. So I inspected it. It's like the spool unwinds itself. As I try to wind the film, the spool doesn't turn. The gears still advance, but the film unwinds enough that the slack makes the film come off the gears. It seems that the film doesn't maintain enough tension on both the film canister end and the take in spool. 

[LocalHero1953]

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23 minutes ago, wrkbks said:

As I try to wind the film, the spool doesn't turn.

If you mean the take-up spool doesn't turn even when you are winding it on (and the rewind lever isn't set to R), then you have a problem with the camera. I may have misunderstood.

Another useful tip is to just waste a cheap film; load it and watch what happens as you wind on several times. Have the sprocket holes dropped over the sprockets? In my experience once they have, your problems should be over, because the tension on the take-up spool should keep them there; once the take-up spool is tensioned and the sprockets engaged no slack should be generated to let them loose again.

Edited November 7, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[wrkbks]

1 minute ago, LocalHero1953 said:

If you mean the take-up spool doesn't turn even when you are winding it on (and the rewind lever isn't set to R), then you have a problem with the camera. I may have misunderstood.

This is what I'm thinking. I'm using an old roll and trying to get it to wind. The holes do drop over the sprockets and try to advance the film. But the spool will not wind the film. So basicly the spockets are tring to shove the film onto the roll, but the roll won't take it. 

This is my first Leica/Rangefinder, and the camera is a bit different than what I'm used to. So with my other film cameras, the take-up spool pulls the film. This one does not. So it does sound like I have a problem. But I haven't seen any information on how it's supposed to work, and Google search is terrible anymore. Everything I've done, it sounds like what I'm doing should work, but isn't. So yeah, I guess what I was assuming is correct, I probably have a problem with the camera. 

Even with no film in, and shooting and winding an empty spool, a light touch on the spool will stop it from rotating. But I just don't see anywhere on what would continue to make it rotate. What forces the roll to wind? 

[LocalHero1953]

Yes, the take-up spool should definitely rotate and pull the film across. Without the spool inserted, does the bit inside turn? If not then there could be a problem with the bit of the mechanism linked to the rewind lever.

I should probably bow out now - this is getting beyond my level of knowledge!  There are plenty of others here who understand it in detail.

Edited November 7, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Jerry Attrik]

When you say in your post #4 that the spool spins freely I assume that this is just 'winding on' with no film loaded.
Also in your post #8 "...a light touch will stop it rotating." Best clue yet.  There is a problem inside the wind on mechanism. 
If you can see the gears rotating whilst you are stopping the spool rotating then it is local to the spool.  If whilst turning
the wind-on knob and your 'light touch' stops not only stops the spool but also the gears that is a problem which needs 
to be repaired by dismantling the mechanism.  If that is not the problem then the friction between the take-up spool
and the wind on shaft is not sufficient. This is provided by a leaf spring (or two) on the shaft itself and they need 'tweaking' a little.

I agree with Local Hero post #9.  Sorry WRKBKS we seem to be 'piling-it-on'. I just hope that it is soft friction springs.

All the best, D.Lox

Edited November 7, 2022 by Jerry Attrik

[Pyrogallol]

There is a sort of slipping clutch on the winder spool gearing. As more film builds up on the spool it has to turn a shorter part of its circumstance to take up each exposure. Maybe it is slipping too much and not turning enough to take up the film being advanced by the sprocket drive?

 

Does the rewind knob turn freely. If it is tight that might be holding the film back, but then it is likely that winding might be difficult and pull the film out of the takeup spool.

It may need a service to get it right. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Pyrogallol

[wrkbks]

Hah. Thanks. So, the gears on the spool always turn. They seem strong. But the spool shaft itself is a two piece design. The sleeve that moves up and down on the shaft will stop spinning with a light touch. And that sleeve spins freely when the film spool is on. 

I feel that it's somehow not locking into the winding action, but I'm not sure how it's supposed to do that. Again, rewind lever is set back to A. Which I would think that would engage this. But trying to find info about what it's supposed to be like is a hard task. 

And just so theirs no confusion, I've attached a picture. This sleeve rotates freely. And when the spool is on this, it holds the spool tight, but I don't see how this would allow the spool to lock in with the winding action. So when film starts to wind, the inner shaft still spins, but the sleeve does not.

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[Pyrogallol]

There is a sort of slipping clutch on the winder spool gearing. As more film builds up on the spool it has to turn a shorter part of its circumstance to take up each exposure. Maybe it is slipping too much and not turning enough to take up the film being advanced by the sprocket drive?

Looks as if you have already worked it out and half way to fixing it as you have been able to strip the camera down.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Pyrogallol

[wrkbks]

6 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

Does the rewind knob turn freely. If it is tight that might be holding the film back, but then it is likely that winding might be difficult and pull the film out of the takeup spool.

It may need a service to get it right. 

Rewind knob rotates freely. Service sounds like its needed at this point. Something doesn't sound like its working right.

[wrkbks]

3 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

There is a sort of slipping clutch on the winder spool gearing. As more film builds up on the spool it has to turn a shorter part of its circumstance to take up each exposure. Maybe it is slipping too much and not turning enough to take up the film being advanced by the sprocket drive?

Looks as if you have already worked it out and half way to fixing it as you have been able to strip the camera down.

This photo is from an ebay auction. So not my exact shaft. But yes, I've stripped this part out to take a better look at what was going on. But unsure where the slipping clutch would be. Not sure what would create the friction on the spool. 

[wrkbks]

I may have found my answer. I do not have this spring at the bottom. I assume this is the clutch that would help advance the film? Any idea on how to get a new one? 

I also figure out my camera is just a III. Not a IIIa. I didn't realize there was a difference. I just assumed A was used for the first version.

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[TomB_tx]

Check with DAG Camera Parts - he has quite a stock of old spare parts.

[wrkbks]

17 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

Check with DAG Camera Parts - he has quite a stock of old spare parts.

Actually contacted them last night. They got back and said they have everthing needed to repair. Said if the spring is missing, it's probably missing other parts to secure it. Said it's a tricky process and said they should be the ones to do the work. Gave an estimate of $75. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by wrkbks

[wrkbks]

Photo of the shaft. It has a washer. So no idea what happened to the spring. 

Most everything else works on the camera that I can tell. The only other issue seems to be the shutter speeds on the slower dial. They seem to stick open for as long as the shutter is held down. Not a huge issue. I'm not expecting to use those too much. 

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Hallo,

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[oldwino]

15 minutes ago, wrkbks said:

Photo of the shaft. It has a washer. So no idea what happened to the spring. 

Most everything else works on the camera that I can tell. The only other issue seems to be the shutter speeds on the slower dial. They seem to stick open for as long as the shutter is held down. Not a huge issue. I'm not expecting to use those too much. 

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Don at DAG will/can fix all of that and your camera will be ready to go for another 75-80 years!