dougdarter Posted September 24, 2007 Share #1 Posted September 24, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello, I have been offered a couple of early 50mm Summicrons. The first, an LTM collapsible, and the second, an M mount dual range Summicron. I know that the first would fit, no problem, as all my other collapsibles work fine, but I'd like to know your opinions regarding sharpness and IQ. The dual range is another matter. I know it can be used on an M8, but reading between the lines, it seems that it may have to be modified in some manner?? I know that it's not possible to use the spectacles, and the close focus range. I've also been told that the IQ from this lens is almost unbeatable. Your comments and help will be much appreciated. Edit - I've just done a search, and it seems as though the DR is a nonstarter due to the close focus flange. Thanks, Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 24, 2007 Posted September 24, 2007 Hi dougdarter, Take a look here Early Summicrons - compatability with M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted September 24, 2007 Share #2 Posted September 24, 2007 Doug, the DR Summicron will not work on the M8 without adaptation of the flange. this is not recommended as it lessens the value of the lens and gains nothing, as the optical cell is identical to the Summicron of the time. Some sources maintain that the DR Summicrons were " handpicked" out of the production line, but I find that story doubtful.That the quality should be unbeatable ( but equal to the ordinary Summicron) may have been true at the time, but the steady progression of lens design has certainly produced better Summicrons over the years. So better to buy a Summicron. The collapsible Summicron in LTM is a sympathetic lens, but not very special regarding fingerprint etc and has no real advantage over newer lenses. The main problem with these lenses was that the collapsing mechanism restricted the diameter, giving rise to more light fall-off than fixed-mount lenses. Many suffer from fungus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdarter Posted September 24, 2007 Author Share #3 Posted September 24, 2007 Doug, the DR Summicron will not work on the M8 without adaptation of the flange. this is not recommended as it lessens the value of the lens and gains nothing, as the optical cell is identical to the Summicron of the time. Some sources maintain that the DR Summicrons were " handpicked" out of the production line, but I find that story doubtful.That the quality should be unbeatable ( but equal to the ordinary Summicron) may have been true at the time, but the steady progression of lens design has certainly produced better Summicrons over the years. So better to buy a Summicron. The collapsible Elmar in LTM is a sympathetic lens, but not very special regarding fingerprint etc. Many suffer from fungus. Thanks Jaap, I'd almost made my mind up NOT to buy the collapsible model, so you've made up my mind for me. It's a shame about the DR. I like my current Summicron, but I thought that I'd like to try an older model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 24, 2007 Share #4 Posted September 24, 2007 Thanks Jaap, I'd almost made my mind up NOT to buy the collapsible model, so you've made up my mind for me. It's a shame about the DR. I like my current Summicron, but I thought that I'd like to try an older model. Go for a Summarit. That lens is unique in low light. If you take the sometimes wild oof drawing into account it can produce very atmospheric work and it has a very special " pastel" colour rendering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdarter Posted September 24, 2007 Author Share #5 Posted September 24, 2007 Go for a Summarit. That lens is unique in low light. If you take the sometimes wild oof drawing into account it can produce very atmospheric work and it has a very special " pastel" colour rendering. Hi Jaapy, I have a Summarit, a Summaron, and two (I'm greedy) Summars. I love them all, and all have different characters, but apart from the Summarit, don't get really sharp until f8. I really want an older Summicron, that's sharp from f4, but still has the vintage Leica look. My modern Summicron Asph is eye bleedingly sharp, but doesn't have the vintage feel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
echorec Posted September 24, 2007 Share #6 Posted September 24, 2007 Another vote for Summarit: A bit soft and dreamy (in a good way...) at F1.5 and f2 and very sharp from f2.8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubice Posted September 25, 2007 Share #7 Posted September 25, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Doug, If you are after the imaging qualities of the DR, go for its non-DR version. The optical formula is identical to the DR and it performs identically to it. The collapsible Summicron is best to stay away from; there are just too many issues with that lens - soft coating, soft glass (with resulting scratches), separation problems - all covered in earlier responses. The reputation of the DR in my opinion, is based solely on its superb mechanical construction - sort of “heavier is better” philosophy. The focusing mount of the DR is indeed a masterpiece. The non-DR and DR perform identically - as mentioned above, they have the same optical formula. The only thing that was “hand picked” about the DR was is actual focal length. As you probably know, nearly all Leica lenses have their true focal length engraved on their barrel - all the DR’s were marked 51.9 (if memory serves me correctly). That was the longest true focal length the 50mm Summicron was available in and as such it was deemed by Leitz to be best for close-ups. I agree with others about the Summarit f:1.5 having a beautiful signature but, the second generation Summicron will probably perform better across the field. The Summarit is a very old design, dating back to the Schneider-designed Xenon f:1.5, which was introduced in the late 1930’s. The Summarit also suffers from internal haze (as do many late 40’s and 50’s Leica lenses) and care has to be taken when buying one. Best, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. borger Posted September 25, 2007 Share #8 Posted September 25, 2007 Do not let anybody talk you out of the type 1 rigid summicron, with the same optical formula as the DR. It has that beautiful vintage feel in B&W but at the same time is VERY sharp (even at f2). As far as sharpness is concerned it not very much behind the 50 asph !!! (but lower in contrast) and sharper than most modern lenses. In practical terms ... the lens is a joy to use .... especially compared to the newer lenses ... smooth precise focussing and a distance scale with 7m, 8m, 10m and 20m signs (compare that with 5m to infinity with the 50 lux asph ) If i could keep one lens for my M8 .. this would probably be te one!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted September 25, 2007 Share #9 Posted September 25, 2007 The origin of the myth about 'handpicked' DR lenses seems to be the following. It was not possible to build Summicrons to exactly the same focal length (52mm, incidentally). They varied about .2mm plus or minus. This was solved by selective assembly. Leitz manufactured three different focusing units, one for the plus lens cells, one for the minus varieties, and one for those right on. If you unscrew the lens cell from a 7-element rigid Summicron you will find the actual focal length scratched into the metal! The different mounts compensated fully for the variation, but you must never screw a lens cell into the wrong kind of mount. —There was only one mount made for the DR lenses however, and that was made for the 'right on' group of optical cells. There is however no difference in the optical performance between the three groups, so a DR lens is in no way optically superior. It has been pointed out that, though optically unchanged, later rigid 7-element Summicrons (c. 1960–64) have slightly better micro-contrast than the earlier lenses, probably due to improved coating. You can recognise them from the knurling in the grooves of the focusing ring, not on the ridges as before. The old man from the Age of the M3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 25, 2007 Share #10 Posted September 25, 2007 Just for the record: The rigid Summicron and the DR Summicron have the same optical formula; the collapsible Summicron is slightly different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 25, 2007 Share #11 Posted September 25, 2007 Doug, follow the advice already given : simply, find a nice Summicron 50 BM no-DR ! It shall even cost less than the DR, which is "more collectible", and not difficult to find : I have one of 1963, slightly under 2.000.000 and is fun to use on M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdarter Posted September 25, 2007 Author Share #12 Posted September 25, 2007 Thanks everybody for the advice. A rigid Summicron it shall be. Now all I have to do is find one that I can afford:p Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 25, 2007 Share #13 Posted September 25, 2007 Thanks everybody for the advice. A rigid Summicron it shall be. Now all I have to do is find one that I can afford:p N° 2.233.xxx for sale at Leicashop of Wien.... [ATTACH]55301[/ATTACH] (I'm not an agent of them... but they are very serious people) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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