ArtZ Posted September 20, 2007 Share #1 Posted September 20, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, I finally bought today a second M8 (also in chrome, like the first one). I know I said I was worried about a M8 ver. 2 after the price increase and I was going to wait for a few months before to see what happens. So why didn’t I wait? Because this afternoon I popped in at “La Maison du Leica” (my dealer) to see what happened to my CRON 2/28 and to my Digilux 2 (both at Solms’ Hospital). Leica will replace my sick Digilux 2 for a brand new Digilux 3 (plus 900 €) which I will get next week. Two other guys bought 2 M8s while I was there. The owner was talking with the second one and he said that he has ordered 50 M8 last week. He will keep the actual price for these bodies even after October 1st because he’s afraid of losing customers due to the price increase. And this is legal because he will sell the bodies with the normal commission. But, before ordering these 50 M8s, he asked for a written confirmation from Solms that there won’t be new M8 version after October. He was afraid of buying 50 bodies he couldn’t sell because, obviously, customers will prefer to pay 600 Euros more than to get the old model. Leica said a “complete new version of firmware will be available very soon”. He didn’t know anything about my intention of buying a second M8 and my worries about an eventual new version. Finally, I decided myself to buy my second M8 today. I tested two bodies (the first one failed infinity focus test). I bought the second one. He packed the first one to be sent to Solms. As we’re friends, we were talking for a while. He was telling me all the problems they have with these returns to Solms because it’s a lot of work for them. And then, he told me something very upsetting: He talked to me about my first (first) M8 which died 24 hours later. It was back to the shop! It was there! I even saw the box! Leica had repaired the body (even if they told him that it will be replaced by a new one) but he cannot sell it because the original warranty card had been used (with my name) and Leica must send him a new warranty card! Conclusion: When we buy a new M8, it’s not necessary a new camera. It could have been repaired at Solms and put it back into the market once it has been fixed…. That’s not nice! PS: I had the impression with the first body I tried today that it had been used (the date and time was already set and the chrome part it didn’t look really "just out of the factory"). . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 20, 2007 Posted September 20, 2007 Hi ArtZ, Take a look here My second M8, M8 ver.2 and M8 repairs.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
boilerdoc Posted September 20, 2007 Share #2 Posted September 20, 2007 I just ordered a second body as well. I will check it over thoroughly when it arrrives. Thanks for the heads up! Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayerische Posted September 20, 2007 Share #3 Posted September 20, 2007 Conclusion: When we buy a new M8, it’s not necessary a new camera. It could have been repaired at Solms and put it back into the market once it has been fixed…. That’s not nice! PS: I had the impression with the first body I tried today that it had been used (the date and time was already set and the chrome part it didn’t look really "just out of the factory"). . But think about the environment, It's not free on the environment to make all the parts again. As long as the camera is not damaged, I wouldn't care if it had been in somebody elses hands for 24h, then sent back and the damaged parts fixed, tested and checked. Might even be a batter body than the norm. Should Leica totally scrap the returned cameras? I think it's common among other manufacturers aswell, to give the product a "heart-transplant" instead of "death". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 20, 2007 Share #4 Posted September 20, 2007 Not nice ok... but not uncorrect in commercial terms, and a normal policy in several industries: a good that comes from the original factory, has a full valid factory warranty, has no signs of use... well it's "new by law"... some setting in the software? Factory quality test... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted September 20, 2007 Author Share #5 Posted September 20, 2007 But think about the environment, It's not free on the environment to make all the parts again. As long as the camera is not damaged, I wouldn't care if it had been in somebody elses hands for 24h, than sent back and the damaged parts fixed, tested and checked. Might even be a batter body than the norm. Should Leica totally scrap the returned cameras? I think it's common among other manufacturers aswell, to give the product a "heart-transplant" instead of "death". Well, to be honest and in legal terms I don't think a camera which has been sold and used (even 24 hours) can be sold again as "new brand" after having been fixed. There're some lawyers here who could answer this question better than me . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayerische Posted September 20, 2007 Share #6 Posted September 20, 2007 Well, to be honest and in legal terms I don't think a camera which has been sold and used (even 24 hours) can be sold again as "new brand" after having been fixed. There're some lawyers here who could answer this question better than me . I can understand your point of view, but what defies "used" in this case? If a lot of parts has probably been changed, maybe the whole internal camera and the camera has been checked for no signs of use, issued with a new 2-year warranty I can't think it would be illegal to ship it out as a "new" camera. After all it's not a half eaten steak. I stand by my initial standpoint, I would not care. Should the camera be totally scrapped just because it broke and was in somebodys hands for 24h? I can't think it should be. Talk about consumption... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayerische Posted September 20, 2007 Share #7 Posted September 20, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) BTW, when I bought my camera, the dealer took it out of the display window. I can imagine that many curious persons including my dealer had handled it for days, is it not new anymore? He did not have the battery in it, so my first picture was labeled L00000001.dng. My package lacked the cigarette lighter adapter for the charger, he took it out of another M8 box, a chrome one, and put it in mine. Is the Chrome M8 now a opened box, is it not a new one anymore? As I said, I can understand your point of view, but I would definately consider your old M8 as a new camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photolandscape Posted September 20, 2007 Share #8 Posted September 20, 2007 But think about the environment, It's not free on the environment to make all the parts again. As long as the camera is not damaged, I wouldn't care if it had been in somebody elses hands for 24h, then sent back and the damaged parts fixed, tested and checked. Might even be a batter body than the norm. Should Leica totally scrap the returned cameras? I think it's common among other manufacturers aswell, to give the product a "heart-transplant" instead of "death". I totally agree with you that from an environmental and financial standpoint, it would be irresponsible to simply toss a defective M8 into the trash. However, it is equally wrong to represent a refurbished unit as brand new, and not pre-owned. Such cameras should re-emerge as clearly labelled "REFURBISHED" units, and should also be priced at least 10-20% less than a brand new, never bought unit. To me, that's a no brainer and I hope Leica is going about this the right way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted September 20, 2007 Author Share #9 Posted September 20, 2007 BTW, when I bought my camera, the dealer took it out of the display window. I can imagine that many curious persons including my dealer had handled it for days, is it not new anymore? He did not have the battery in it, so my first picture was labeled L00000001.dng. My package lacked the cigarette lighter adapter for the charger, he took it out of another M8 box, a chrome one, and put it in mine. Is the Chrome M8 now a opened box, is it not a new one anymore? As I said, I can understand your point of view, but I would definately consider your old M8 as a new camera. I understand your point but, as I said, I'm not a sollicitor. Besides we're talking about two different things: 1.- My first camera was sold to me and used (for 24H, ok). I don't think, in legal terms, Leica can sell it a second time as brand new. 2.- You bought an "expo" camera and you're entitled in the EU to have a rebate. Tomorrow I have dinner with my sollicitors (not a business diner!) so I will ask them what they think. On the other hand, I understand your point. Personally, I don't think I would buy a camera if I know it has been used, it had problems and it had to be repaired. Maybe it's nothing wrong with the camera after repair... but I wouldn't buy it for the same price than a brand new camera! Would you buy a car which was used for 24 hours (even if it had no problems) for the same price? . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted September 20, 2007 Share #10 Posted September 20, 2007 I guess we now have a definitive answer as to why "new" M8s are being bought that have very early serial numbers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe D. Posted September 20, 2007 Share #11 Posted September 20, 2007 I bought knowingly a refurbished M8 body last February. It had about 200 shots on the counter already but, the dealer sold it as a demo and the selling price was well down under normal. It was in very good condition and i just had the usual little problems with it, not more, not less. Still i'm pretty happy with. If a refurbished body, with some shots shown on the exif, is sold as new one for the full price... that's not a very nice business, especially for the buyer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlancasterd Posted September 20, 2007 Share #12 Posted September 20, 2007 When we buy a new M8, it’s not necessary a new camera. It could have been repaired at Solms and put it back into the market once it has been fixed…. That’s not nice![/b] [/i]).. Well, I *know* that the ex-demo chrome M8 that I bought in Aprill had seen some use - but then I did get a £300 discount on the list price... (and I did get my two free IR filters, etc.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayerische Posted September 20, 2007 Share #13 Posted September 20, 2007 I agree with all of you, but still it would not bother me. I would buy a car for 4200euro as new, if it was in somebodys hands for 24h, then sent back to the factory because of a damaged sparkplug, totally checked, all signs of wear and tear removed and issued with a new 2-year warranty. It would not be a big deal. Now, I don't buy 4200e cars, and yes, I would think somewhat different if the M8 would cost 100.000euros. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominic Posted September 20, 2007 Share #14 Posted September 20, 2007 Be careful with your conclusion ! We don't know who is involved : Leica Solms or the parisian dealer ? When Leica sells to a dealer x cameras, there are all "factory fresh". After that, if one camera has a problem, in french law, it's up to the dealer to decide : send back to Solms to be repaired or exchange for a new one. But, in the latter case, Solms may refuse to the dealer the replacement of the faulty camera by a new one. Solms may just repair and return the camera to the dealer. And the dealer must sell the camera with a discount. If the dealer sells the camera as a "fresh factory" one, he's not honest. But Solms is not involved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe D. Posted September 20, 2007 Share #15 Posted September 20, 2007 We don't know who is involved : Leica Solms or the parisian dealer ?And even at the parisian dealer, it is not for sale yet... and the selling price is not known (or told).So it could be sold as a demo with 20% off ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayerische Posted September 20, 2007 Share #16 Posted September 20, 2007 Be careful with your conclusion ! We don't know who is involved : Leica Solms or the parisian dealer ? When Leica sells to a dealer x cameras, there are all "factory fresh". After that, if one camera has a problem, in french law, it's up to the dealer to decide : send back to Solms to be repaired or exchange for a new one. But, in the latter case, Solms may refuse to the dealer the replacement of the faulty camera by a new one. Solms may just repair and return the camera to the dealer. And the dealer must sell the camera with a discount. If the dealer sells the camera as a "fresh factory" one, he's not honest. But Solms is not involved. Yes! I forgot about this. Under EU law the manufacturer/seller has the right to be given a chance to repair a faulty product. For instance, if you buy a cellphone and it last's for an hour and breaks down, then it's up to the dealer to refund you/give you a new one, or simply as protected by law, he can send it in for service, and you'll be your money spent down, without a new phone, or any phone for that matter. So it's highly probable that Leica simply returned a camera intended for contunious use with it's original buyer, you. Your dealer was friendly enough to offer you a new one. I doubt mine would! When plasma TV's came out onto the market, I bought a 42" one. It lasted about a week, with problems from the beginning a high pitch sound coming from the back of the TV. Finally it broke down. Angry and frustrated I tried to get a new one. No their going to fix it. I called the consumer protection agency, and they politely explained to me, that even if it would have been broken from the start, the seller/manufacturer must have a chance to repair it, and it's totally up to the seller to give me a new one or not. Well the TV was not repairable (it took 7 weeks for the repairmen to figure this out ) so I finally got a new plasma tv of similar quality/make and this one works still... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted September 20, 2007 Author Share #17 Posted September 20, 2007 Be careful with your conclusion ! We don't know who is involved : Leica Solms or the parisian dealer ? When Leica sells to a dealer x cameras, there are all "factory fresh". After that, if one camera has a problem, in french law, it's up to the dealer to decide : send back to Solms to be repaired or exchange for a new one. But, in the latter case, Solms may refuse to the dealer the replacement of the faulty camera by a new one. Solms may just repair and return the camera to the dealer. And the dealer must sell the camera with a discount. If the dealer sells the camera as a "fresh factory" one, he's not honest. But Solms is not involved. Dominique, First of all, Leica France (Jean-Pierre Hamadache) and Leica Solms (Attila von Guyimes) decided to replace the camera. My problem happened during the weekend. On Monday, I contacted Leica France and Leica Solms because "La Maison du Leica" is closed on Mondays. Leica France (and Solms) offered me to send the same day a new camera by FedEx or, if I could wait till Tuesday and if "La Maison du Leica" had another one in stock, they will replace it with no problem. When I took the camera on Tuesday, the dealer had been already informed by Solms. He just checked the camera with me (SDS) and he gave me a new one. "La Maison du Leica / Leica Camera Paris" is more than a dealer, It's the Leica Shop, not just a Leica Center. A Leica Shop is an exclusive environment in which to view the entire range of Leica products. It is in this unique atmosphere that you will receive "best advice" from dedicated and experienced staff. All dealers in France know "La Maison du Leica". The Leica Shop has nothing to do with it. Leica just returned the camera to be sold as a new camera, not as a refurbished camera. In Solms they forgot to include a new "Warranty Card". He's just waiting for it. Besides, even if we're friends, I don't see the reason why he would tell me that if he just wanted to sell an used camera for a new one. I know him for years (I have always bought my cameras there. They have three shops: Medium format (including 35mm) and large format. I can tell you they're extreamely professional (official resellers of Hasselblad, Mamiya, Nikon, Canon...) and they wouldn't do anything like that. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayerische Posted September 20, 2007 Share #18 Posted September 20, 2007 Dominique, First of all, Leica France (Jean-Pierre Hamadache) and Leica Solms (Attila von Guyimes) decided to replace the camera. My problem happened during the weekend. On Monday, I contacted Leica France and Leica Solms because "La Maison du Leica" is closed on Mondays. Leica France (and Solms) offered me to send the same day a new camera by FedEx or, if I could wait till Tuesday and if "La Maison du Leica" had another one in stock, they will replace it with no problem. When I took the camera on Tuesday, the dealer had been already informed by Solms. He just checked the camera with me (SDS) and he gave me a new one. "La Maison du Leica / Leica Camera Paris" is more than a dealer, It's the Leica Shop, not just a Leica Center. A Leica Shop is an exclusive environment in which to view the entire range of Leica products. It is in this unique atmosphere that you will receive "best advice" from dedicated and experienced staff. All dealers in France know "La Maison du Leica". The Leica Shop has nothing to do with it. Leica just returned the camera to be sold as a new camera, not as a refurbished camera. In Solms they forgot to include a new "Warranty Card". He's just waiting for it. Besides, even if we're friends, I don't see the reason why he would tell me that if he just wanted to sell an used camera for a new one. I know him for years (I have always bought my cameras there. They have three shops: Medium format (including 35mm) and large format. I can tell you they're extreamely professional (official resellers of Hasselblad, Mamiya, Nikon, Canon...) and they wouldn't do anything like that. . Well, of all the Leica dealers in the World, what's the odds of your faulty-now refurbished camera getting back to the original dealer for a re-sell? Probably something different behind... don't you think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted September 20, 2007 Author Share #19 Posted September 20, 2007 Well, of all the Leica dealers in the World, what's the odds of your faulty-now refurbished camera getting back to the original dealer for a re-sell? Probably something different behind... don't you think? Easier for accounting reasons? That can explain it. I cannot see anything else. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 20, 2007 Share #20 Posted September 20, 2007 Be careful with your conclusion ! We don't know who is involved : Leica Solms or the parisian dealer ? When Leica sells to a dealer x cameras, there are all "factory fresh". After that, if one camera has a problem, in french law, it's up to the dealer to decide : send back to Solms to be repaired or exchange for a new one. But, in the latter case, Solms may refuse to the dealer the replacement of the faulty camera by a new one. Solms may just repair and return the camera to the dealer. And the dealer must sell the camera with a discount. If the dealer sells the camera as a "fresh factory" one, he's not honest. But Solms is not involved. Right, Dominic; the only question about is regarding WARRANTY : the dealer told "he was waiting for another warranty" and this can be normal for 24 hours (or even 2 or 3 days...) from the acquisition, but... do they would give a full 2 year warranty for a camera that has been sold, say 2 or 3 months before the trip to Solms ? If so, there would be a sort of acquaintance by Leica to the fact that the dealer tries to sell it as "new"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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