Leica S typ 007 or sl2?

[cwolfphoto]

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Hi guys, im a portrait photographer/fine artist photographer... I ve been debating on what to buy... I already have a SL2S that I use for video, but I dont have any sl lenses yet.
What do you guys think? Is it worth to buy a S typ 007 and a lens, I do kinda want a medium format camera, or should buy a SL2 for the extra resolution and a SL lens?
Is the S medium format difference in IQ that much better? Or I would not notice the difference?

I do print my work, maybe no super big but big enough...

Ive been strugling with this thinking, and no, here where I live theres no way to rent any of these camera so I can try and see what fit better for myself.

Thank you guys!

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[Nick Guttridge]

Hi, I have the SL2S which I also use mainly for video. I also shoot some architecture on it with a 24m shift.

It's possible to buy a 007 quite inexpensively now. Also, it's possible to pick up second hand S lenses. 

I did this specifically for my dance photography. As the S will sync at 1/1000th of a second with CS lenses. This is something my SL2 can't do. 

I find that the whole shooting experience with the 007 for my needs is excellent. High up there is the battery life. I can shoot all day with a battery grip with two batteries in the studio. Obviously the quality is excellent. There is more than enough resolution for my needs. I find that the resolution of the 007 is the sweet spot for me as I want to shoot quite alot. Sometimes I shoot over 1000 frames on a typical dance shoot. I don't want a fuji with 100mp. 

Really enjoy shooting portraits with the S system also. For that medium format look. 

So it really depends upon what you wish to shoot. I use my S lenses on my SL2S. They work very well indeed. I don't own any SL lenses. 

My photography has improved since I bought the S, but there is still a place for the SL2S. 

In a world where the SLR camera is beginning to be a thing of the past. I hope that Leica will find a way to continue investing in the S system. Or at least supporting it. I think the main benefit of the system are the lenses and simplicity of the camera. I love the focus system. I like the fact that I don't have to fuss too much with the camera. I also like that fact it never overheats when pressed hard in the studio. Tethering to Capture One is excellent also.

The S is an underrated camera in my opinion. Sometimes I use it for architecture. When I am shooting a building from afar or shooting an interior (when I don't need shifts). I also have a Leaf medium format for architecture on a Arca Swiss. Which is quite a specialised system with Rodenstock Lenses.  

I have tried the Phaseone system and I find that the XF camera has terrible shutter lag. 

Frankly I've been around the houses with lots of different cameras and the S system is certainly one I pick up more often than the others. 

 

 

 

[LeicaR10]

Cwolfphoto,  I owned and used the Leica S system since its inception to about 2021 when I sold my business to my assistants.  I did fine art landscape photography for clients that needed/wanted unique landscapes in remote regions of the globe and required very large prints.  All the cameras worked most excellent in hostile weather.  The S cameras and lenses render in a very cinematic way, unlike the SL system that is more perfect in rendering due to the latest lens and sensor advancements.  The S camera sensors are different by design and larger than SL system sensors.  The S lenses are designed to work with no firmware corrections, unlike the SL lenses.  As I said, both systems are different.  For me to recommend which system is best for your work, only you can determine do you really need or simply want a S camera.  There is a difference between needing and wanting.  The S camera and lenses are ideal for studio work, fashion, portraits, landscapes, etc.  But so is the SL system.  I might add, when I would take the S system to the field, I had several assistants to help carry all the S gear and our camping supplies.  All these things need to be thought through depending on what you want to do.  In addition, there is a new S4 in the works.  It will be mirrorless based on my discussions with those that know the real scoop.  It might be worth your wait for about 12-15 months.  If you decide to pick up S lenses, I highly recommend you buy only from a reputable dealer with the AF motors verified in writng as replaced by Leica at Wetzlar before buying.  I am sure others will chime in, both S and SL cameras are excellent for what you wrote in your OP thread.  It is your decision alone.  In the meantime, here is a link to Red Dot Forum and David Farkas Definitive Guide to S lenses.  Last I looked, Camera West has a S007 for under $5K and Popflash has a S3 for $13K+.  Keep in mind, the S system depeciates rapidly like automobiles.  Cameras, like automobiles are normally not good "investments".  Just my 2 cents based on experience.   r/ Mark

Try:  https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/04/the-definitive-guide-to-leica-s-lenses/

[mgrayson3]

6 hours ago, cwolfphoto said:

Hi guys, im a portrait photographer/fine artist photographer... I ve been debating on what to buy... I already have a SL2S that I use for video, but I dont have any sl lenses yet.
What do you guys think? Is it worth to buy a S typ 007 and a lens, I do kinda want a medium format camera, or should buy a SL2 for the extra resolution and a SL lens?
Is the S medium format difference in IQ that much better? Or I would not notice the difference?

I do print my work, maybe no super big but big enough...

Ive been strugling with this thinking, and no, here where I live theres no way to rent any of these camera so I can try and see what fit better for myself.

Thank you guys!

A tough one. I don't shoot video, and only have the SL zooms. Nothing touches them. Fuji makes a lot of "perfect" lenses. I don't care for the results. SL primes are marvelous. BUT, I will never use anything but an S if it's at all possible. If you want to see what can be done in the studio for portraiture and dance (no strobes) with an S(007) and S120/2.5, check out Mark Mann and, in particular, his Dance Book. I've seen these images printed 44" wide and they look fantastic.

[Sarnian]

4 hours ago, Nick Guttridge said:

I don't want a fuji with 100mp

 

 

 

I do. But then I don't. But then I do. But then I... 🤨

The draw of the Leica S, for me, is the 30-90mm lens. Contax has a 40-90mm (not wide enough). Hasselblad has a 35-90mm (not wide enough & way too long). Fuji has the 32-64mm (not wide enough & not as long zoom range). So, the 30-90mm is a pretty unique lens in a small - if not heavy - package. 👍

[ImmerDraussen]

For me the SL2S plus a S007 is a pretty perfect combination:

• You have an OVF and an EFV
• S-lenses can adapted to the SL, if an IBIS is needed
• Central shutter lenses are available
• Menue structure is very similar
• There is a macro lens available

What ever fails (lens, body, batterie), with this combo the chance to continue shooting is close to 100%

 

Andreas

Edited August 1, 2022 by ImmerDraussen

[mgrayson3]

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BTW, I shot with the Fuji GFX 100 for a year. Six lenses from 23mm (prefer the S 24mm) to 250mm (nothing like it for the S except adapted manual focus). Sold it all to upgrade the S(007) to the S3. Couldn't be happier with that decision!

Matt

Edited August 1, 2022 by mgrayson3

[mgrayson3]

3 hours ago, Sarnian said:

I do. But then I don't. But then I do. But then I... 🤨

The draw of the Leica S, for me, is the 30-90mm lens. Contax has a 40-90mm (not wide enough). Hasselblad has a 35-90mm (not wide enough & way too long). Fuji has the 32-64mm (not wide enough & not as long zoom range). So, the 30-90mm is a pretty unique lens in a small - if not heavy - package. 👍

The SL 24-90 is a great zoom. Beautiful rendering - maybe better than the S 30-90 at the long end. The SL 90-280 is a miracle. Nothing in a zoom comes close. (All personal preferences of course.)

Edited August 1, 2022 by mgrayson3

[Sarnian]

4 hours ago, Sarnian said:

Contax has a 40-90mm (not wide enough). 

Sorry - 45-90mm. 

[Sailronin]

OP understands (hopefully) the S is a very different system than the SL2.  I have had my S(006) since 2016  and love the S lenses.  That said, I bought the L to S adapter and use those same wonderful (but heavy) lenses on my new SL2-S with quite similar result. The S is heavy but handles very well, is easy to forget that it's medium format and not just a large full frame DSLR.  With no image stabilization for critical work a tripod is almost a must (although with a TYP 007 you can shoot higher ISO) to get maximum benefit from the larger sensor.

I don't think you can go wrong with either but I do prefer the optical viewfinder, especially for studio work.

[Pieter12]

44 minutes ago, Sailronin said:

I do prefer the optical viewfinder

I really dislike EVFs, all my cameras have an optical viewfinder. I have not used a newer mirrorless camera, maybe the viewfinders have improved a bit.

[Sailronin]

54 minutes ago, Pieter12 said:

I really dislike EVFs, all my cameras have an optical viewfinder. I have not used a newer mirrorless camera, maybe the viewfinders have improved a bit.

The SL-S EVF is very good, but you still lose the subject for the length of time the "review image" is set, even if it's set to 0 there is loss. My biggest issue is when working in my home studio I do a lot of black background with studio flashes. It becomes almost impossible to compose of focus as the modeling lights are not very bright.  Same problem with the Hasselblad 907x, can't see to compose or focus.

[Pieter12]

I can't help with the composition part, but I regularly use a powerful flashlight to help me focus, and sometimes a ball of crinkled aluminum foil on a stick that I place in the areas I want to check focus.

[hoppyman]

Everyone's priorities and preferences vary of course. My comments based on mine.
I shot for a number of years with the S system in studio including portraits (with the 120 macro)
Almost entirely on tripod.
I now use the SL2 instead.
One functional aspect to consider is the much more sophisticated focus options with the SL2
With your composition/framing as you choose, you can accurately place the spot/zone on the near eye  (for portraits) instead of the centre reticle then recompose method.
The APO Macro Summarit S 120 can create superb results with the adaptor on The SL2 as well. Tripod mounted essential I think. I use an RRS plate attached to the lens foot.
 

Edited August 2, 2022 by hoppyman
additional info

[Stuart Richardson]

If you are not already in the S system, but you are in the SL one, I would personally take the SL2 versus the S007. I had been in the S system for almost ten years, using the S2, S006 and finally the S3. I made the "mistake" of buying a used SL2 while waiting for the S3. I really really liked it. It was extremely fluid in use, more flexible in that it could take M, L or S mount lenses, and in general I found it a more reliable camera (not that the S broke, but that the SL2 just always focused correctly, metered better etc). I just found that for what I did, I preferred the SL2. The lenses are sharper and flatter of field, which is important here in Iceland (lots of sharp detail equidistant from the camera...for example mountain ranges in the distance), It is both much more precise and much more accurate in terms of focus. Using AFS, it almost never misfocuses. I found that it was sharper than the S006 (which is slightly sharper or at least has more acutance than the S007. ) and in a lot of cases, even sharper than the S3 at 64mp. The difference being the sharper lenses and the much higher focus accuracy. In the end, I did not like the character of the detail or the color out of the S3 either, so I put it up for sale. It seems the majority of people who use the S3 prefer it to the SL2, but I was not among them. In general, I prefer the optical viewfinder, but if it is not sufficiently accurate for reliable manual focus (which I found), and the AF is finicky, then I would (and did) rather trade it for a high res EVF that is more representative of what the sensor is doing. The OVF is still better at night and in bright sunlight.

As for the S007 specifically, it would be my last choice for an S body. I think the best S body is the S006. That is the one that has the best color and the most distinctive look (along with the S2), and it has the best interface (a real shutter speed knob, but also faster and better menus than the S2). The S007 is a much better camera for higher ISO and has a significantly wider dynamic range, but I don't think I have ever had a camera where the photos out of camera look more "finished" than the S006. The S007 and S3 lost that for me. The color became unpleasant, especially in the S3. It can be fixed by using Capture One profiles or Cobalt Image profiles, but in general, I don't think the benefits of ISO and live view are worth the change of the sensor. I don't think I am totally alone in this, but most people here don't agree with me. For me, the S006 was the peak utility and peak image quality of the S range, but time has moved on, and I think the SL2 does a better job than any S camera these days. If you want a true "medium format" look, then I think it is only Phase One's larger sensors that really gives it. Even their largest sensors are still barely 645. Nothing in digital really adequately gives you the character of 6x7 or 4x5 without resort to some serious trickery.

As a postscript, I should say that this question is very difficult for anyone other than you to answer. The differences could be very significant or not significant at all, depending on your feeling. The S lenses are really beautiful, especially for their bokeh and overall character, so that may be more important than sharpness or anything else with your photography, but if you are primarily concerned with edge to edge sharpness, evenness of sharpness across the frame and a total lack of aberrations, then the SL Summicrons are without peer. I would say that for about 80% of my photographs, it would not be possible for anyone to guess which was made with an S and which with an SL2, but there are that 20% where the difference in lenses or the difference in bokeh come into it and it is clearer.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[mgrayson3]

3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

As a postscript, I should say that this question is very difficult for anyone other than you to answer. 

I'd say impossible. A camera you're fighting with does not stay long in the bag. I so wish I liked using the SL or the GFX 100. But I don't. 

It can even come down to which images are easier to work on in post.

No one can tell you these things.

[cwolfphoto]

Hi guys thank you for all your answer. And big thank you Stuart Richardson. And you too are right mgrayson3.... It is difficult to answer, and I wish i could have a way to test the camera o r rent the camera so I can see for myself but theres no way of doing that here... Im trying to get some raw file of both to see how they look, and to be honest I do a lot of post production some times and change some colors and all that so the look out of camera is not as important as how manageable are the files, but one think I can not do is fake lens character or qualities, Im often looking for more cinematic qualities out of the lenses and i dont know if sl lenses are way to clinical or not...

[helged]

1 hour ago, cwolfphoto said:

Hi guys thank you for all your answer. And big thank you Stuart Richardson. And you too are right mgrayson3.... It is difficult to answer, and I wish i could have a way to test the camera o r rent the camera so I can see for myself but theres no way of doing that here... Im trying to get some raw file of both to see how they look, and to be honest I do a lot of post production some times and change some colors and all that so the look out of camera is not as important as how manageable are the files, but one think I can not do is fake lens character or qualities, Im often looking for more cinematic qualities out of the lenses and i dont know if sl lenses are way to clinical or not...

The SL-Crons are 'perfect'. For (slightly) less perfection, and for slightly more cinematic look, I would go for the S. This is, at least for me, why S is the main working tool. 

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[Stuart Richardson]

I should also come in and say that I don't want to give the impression that the S lenses are not sharp. They are very sharp...especially the 45mm and 120mm. But their sharpness is a bit trickier to access at times, as the cameras are not as accurate with their focus, and the field curvature in the lenses make it such that the sharpness is not always where you expect it, except in the center of the frame. I saw it most in the 70mm, but that was also my most used lens. This is all nitpicky...stuff you don't really see until you are shooting landscape in lower light and trying to shoot the lenses at f2.5 - f5.6. If you shoot at f8 or f11 you are not going to see this issue. It is most apparent when compared to the SL Summicrons, which have such technical perfection...they are just tack sharp from edge to edge with almost no field curvature, even at f2.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[ZHNL]

I love S006 with any S glasses however I feel SL2 is much easy to use and can consistently get excellent results. It can be used with S, R, M, SL glasses and Sigma build very lovely AF glasses as well. 

I dealt with S system for last 10 plus years and know inside out how to use the system. I had lots of frustration and rewarding from using it. It is not the easiest system to use but images can be lovely that none of other system approaching it. It is very personal I would say. No one can answer this for you.